On-call and Rest for Part 135

[ppragman]

So there are literally no consequences- I'm not claiming I'm any better (I've worked for places that did that before I really wised up), but when literally no one calls them out, things will never change.

So yes, me, you, the pilots, the DO, and company management are all responsible for this nonsense.

It's not enough to simply behave ethically; to knowingly ignore unethical behavior enables that behavior and is nearly as bad. And I say that as someone who's enabled a ton of unethical behavior.

 

[DE727UPS]

Where I work (union), there is no contractual duty to answer a call. Especially in rest. They will leave a message on the hotel phone and turn the light on. They will have staff leave a note under the door. They can cause a pop up that locks you out of the flight ops website unless you acknowledge it. You can ignore all these things. They are pretty much smart enough not to disturb rest now. I believe the FAR's define rest as having no obligation to do any company related duty. Now, I suppose they could interrupt your rest to have you show later, as long as they start your rest over again when you hang up the phone.

 

[1Wingnut]

So there are literally no consequences- I'm not claiming I'm any better (I've worked for places that did that before I really wised up), but when literally no one calls them out, things will never change.

So yes, me, you, the pilots, the DO, and company management are all responsible for this nonsense.

It's not enough to simply behave ethically; to knowingly ignore unethical behavior enables that behavior and is nearly as bad. And I say that as someone who's enabled a ton of unethical behavior.

I didn't ignore the behavior; I called them out on it and told them I would not work for a company with those practices. I also posted a warning about it online, trying to educate pilots that might be new and not understand the issue. What have you done about it lately, and is the problem fixed yet? I can think of ten companies like this off the top of my head. Do you want a list, so you can investigate and report them all? I would do it myself but a) it would leave time for little else and b) nothing would be done about it. I tried to make people aware of the problem, and suddenly, I'm the problem. Thanks.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I didn't ignore the behavior; I called them out on it and told them I would not work for a company with those practices. I also posted a warning about it online, trying to educate pilots that might be new and not understand the issue. What have you done about it lately, and is the problem fixed yet? I can think of ten companies like this off the top of my head. Do you want a list, so you can investigate and report them all? I would do it myself but a) it would leave time for little else and b) nothing would be done about it. I tried to make people aware of the problem, and suddenly, I'm the problem. Thanks.

We've all done things "for the greater good (actually for the company line)" that turned out to be unethical and/or illegal, and nobody's singled you out as "the problem."

Best thing to do somewhere is keep a running list of places that still operate that "rolling rest" crap so pilots can know who to avoid, because you're right, as long as POI's are still willing to look the other way, the only thing that's going to change the problem is for these places to find themselves out of a work force.

 

[Roger Roger]

We've all done things "for the greater good (actually for the company line)" that turned out to be unethical and/or illegal, and nobody's singled you out as "the problem."

Best thing to do somewhere is keep a running list of places that still operate that "rolling rest" crap so pilots can know who to avoid, because you're right, as long as POI's are still willing to look the other way, the only thing that's going to change the problem is for these places to find themselves out of a work force.

I’m not 100% convinced that what he’s described is illegal, provided they abide by it and schedule out his required days off in advance. Sucky, yes, but I don’t think illegal. He will always have his 10 hours of rest before flying, and it’s always known in advance (not retrospectively). Unless there is an LOI that addresses this specific situation.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I’m not 100% convinced that what he’s described is illegal, provided they abide by it and schedule out his required days off in advance. Sucky, yes, but I don’t think illegal. He will always have his 10 hours of rest before flying, and it’s always known in advance (not retrospectively). Unless there is an LOI that addresses this specific situation.

I may have misread but I thought he was describing rolling lookback rest, where you're simultaneously on call and on rest and when they call you then as long as you can "look back" ten hours and not see a duty period, you're "... legal ... "

 

[Roger Roger]

I may have misread but I thought he was describing rolling lookback rest, where you're simultaneously on call and on rest and when they call you then as long as you can "look back" ten hours and not see a duty period, you're "... legal ... "

Hang on, we might be talking two different things. Praggles dropped another question into the middle that confused things for me. I was replying to the “stay in rest until 0100 for an 0200 departure” phone call.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Hang on, we might be talking two different things. Praggles dropped another question into the middle that confused things for me. I was replying to the “stay in rest until 0100 for an 0200 departure” phone call.

Oh yeah, provided that call comes no later than 1500 that's perfectly legal.

 

[SrFnFly227]

Well, no, I don't think so. I don't want to hurt the 40+ pilots working for them - either by getting them investigated, or losing their jobs. The FAA tends to be much more harsh on pilots than the 135 operators, due to the client relationship they have with 135 companies. If a POI goes around shutting down the 135 operators he oversees, pretty soon he makes his own job redundant. I don't say that is right, but it is reality. Pilots, on the other hand, easily get thrown under the bus, and I don't want to be part of that. I declined the job, and told them why. If enough of us do that, things will change.

As stated, you should report them. And if they are still doing it a month from now, report them again. Somebody (I won’t say who) did this to the employer from my original post. The FAA finally stepped in and made them change their scheduling. No violation to any pilot. No shutting them down. Just a “find a way to make it legal.”

 

[SrFnFly227]

Oh yeah, provided that call comes no later than 1500 that's perfectly legal.

The company in the hypothetical could call at any time they want. There is a letter backing up the FAA’s one call stance and how it does not interrupt rest. What they can not do is require that the pilot answer the phone during a rest period.

 

[averettpilot]

The company in the hypothetical could call at any time they want. There is a letter backing up the FAA’s one call stance and how it does not interrupt rest. What they can not do is require that the pilot answer the phone during a rest period.

So for companies that operate rolling rest, you don’t ever have to answer the phone, yes?

 

[SrFnFly227]

So for companies that operate rolling rest, you don’t ever have to answer the phone, yes?

The way I see it, a company has 2 options when it comes to legally operating on a rolling rest schedule. Only one would actually work operationally though.

Option 1: Pilots are on call 24/7 and must answer the phone at any time. The pilot is then assigned a 10 hour rest period before showtime for the next trip. I don’t think it would be great for qol or fatigue if the company is assigning trips on both sides of the clock, but it would be completely legal under today’s FARs.

Option 2: Pilots are on rest at all times and truly have the option to answer the phone. The “one call” would not interrupt the rest and the pilots could show immediately after receiving the call. The obvious problem here is that the pilots are not required to answer the phone. It would be pretty difficult to find a crew if nobody picks up.

 

[Crockrocket94]

The way I see it, a company has 2 options when it comes to legally operating on a rolling rest schedule. Only one would actually work operationally though.

Option 1: Pilots are on call 24/7 and must answer the phone at any time. The pilot is then assigned a 10 hour rest period before showtime for the next trip. I don’t think it would be great for qol or fatigue if the company is assigning trips on both sides of the clock, but it would be completely legal under today’s FARs.

Option 2: Pilots are on rest at all times and truly have the option to answer the phone. The “one call” would not interrupt the rest and the pilots could show immediately after receiving the call. The obvious problem here is that the pilots are not required to answer the phone. It would be pretty difficult to find a crew if nobody picks up.

The first option is legal. However, not practical with most charter.

The second is what a bunch of companies do. "We don't require you to answer the phone, but we advise that you do..." Makes me red...

 

[gotWXdagain]

The first option is legal. However, not practical with most charter.

The second is what a bunch of companies do. "We don't require you to answer the phone, but we advise that you do..." Makes me red...

“We don’t require that you answer the phone... unless you want to keep working for us.”

 

[Dugie8]

Option 3: Staff according to the amount of availability you want.

Want 24/7/365 you’re gonna need 3 full crews per airplane MINIMUM.


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[BigZ]

Option 3: Staff according to the amount of availability you want.

Want 24/7/365 you’re gonna need 3 full crews per airplane MINIMUM.


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[ppragman]

Option 3: Staff according to the amount of availability you want.

Want 24/7/365 you’re gonna need 3 full crews per airplane MINIMUM.


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Yup and that puts the crews on 20-days-on-10 off.

 

[ppragman]

Oh yeah, provided that call comes no later than 1500 that's perfectly legal.

This would be my assessment as well.

 

[gotWXdagain]

This would be my assessment as well.

You would hope, however, that your crew scheduling would still keep a generally days crew and a generally nights crew. At least so you can get a circadian rhythm going at the beginning of your on week.

 

[1Wingnut]

You would hope, however, that your crew scheduling would still keep a generally days crew and a generally nights crew. At least so you can get a circadian rhythm going at the beginning of your on week.

A lot of air ambulance companies do this. Pilots know their duty period in advance, and they are on call for flights within that period.