Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Plus, unless a company puts a lot of time and effort into keeping the technical portion of an interview fresh it really just turns into "how well have you studied the gouge?"
Alpa endorsed hour reduction plan.
- Thread starter Wardogg
- Start date
Agreed.
Plus, unless a company puts a lot of time and effort into keeping the technical portion of an interview fresh it really just turns into "how well have you studied the gouge?"
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I think in terms of competence I'd be a lot more frightened to be on a plane with you back when you were barely flying. I can't say that I disagree that sitting at home on reserve getting paid not to go to work is "the dream." But in terms of competence, I feel out of the loop after even two weeks off.
denverpilot
Well-Known Member
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Then find a cheaper way to do it. Replace a CR2 with crappy load factor and 2 pilots with a Caravan, PC12, or one of those new Tecnam 9-seaters and one pilot. A problem that I see right now is that there is nothing in production that bridges the gap between the 9 seaters and the 50 seaters. Might be a chicken and egg thing, maybe it’s just too expensive to run a 2-pilot 2-turbine engine airplane to make even a new, efficient, reliable aircraft profitable in the 19 or 34 seat market, so there’s no demand to build one.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
The interview model has changed. Entry level jobs aside, the career track airlines are hiring people with thousands of hours, and usually multiple jet/turboprop types. Sticking them in a sim for an aircraft they probably have never flown, and expecting them to fly an ILS as a judge on whether or not they are a good pilot has proven all but useless. Failed initials happen, but that is either because of an honest mistake, or attitude. Only ones I know to have failed out and been shown the door here are ones with very poor attitudes that didn't manifest themselves in the interview. Asking obscure ATP questions or Jepp chart questions, as well as a sim eval at that level is very moot and a waste of time and money.
UIPilot45X
Well-Known Member
So, what is the timeline on this? As far as I see it, it needs an act of congress to pass? Are we talking next year...the year after? I can't really see this moving super fast.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Hey, you're not wrong. I think I was perfectly safe, but only because I'd been flying the airplane for quite a while at that point. Had I been more green in the plane, it wouldn't have been safe at all. And I still felt rusty at times even with the years I had in it. It was a hall of a great lifestyle, though.
I'm aware. I just disagree with the changes. Half of my AirTran interview was a customer service interview by HR. I find that absurd, but it's what's happened to pilot hiring departments overs the years.
RamRise
Well-Known Member
Hmm. Bailed out of one of the magical “Aviation colleges” in the early 90s, here.
And no, 45 isn’t old. But you gave me a chuckle.
(My instructor is pushing 80 and teaches every day. He stopped bothering to update his main logbook somewhere above 35,000 hours, started his first commercial flying job in the DC-2, ended it on the DC-10, and has been running his own flight school ever since. There is life outside of the airlines, and a lot of flying too. ;-) )
I went into telecom and IT, made six figures on merit real quick. That’s a significant difference in Aviation and a lot of serious pro jobs, actually. You can pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you bust it out.
Most do have pro certifications and licensure, but the degree itself isn’t revered 100% over experience and knowledge. I’d kill for a college grad in my IT hiring that knew anything at all about how computers actually make or save businesses money, and I could care less that they sat through a degree program if they know business and have good tech skills, but I digress.
(The story of the CS Masters who didn’t know how her computer booted, made me chuckle. BTDT, seen it, got the t-shirt. I’ve held more interesting conversations about tech with many pilots vs new CS grads over the decades. Ha.)
So, never did finish the degree but made that money a decade sooner than anyone who stayed in Aviation in the early 90s (... mmmm, Mesa...), and paid off everything including house, four vehicles (five if you count the one on permanent loan to an organization), and co-own a bugsmasher hangared at the local ‘drome, airplane and hangar owned outright.
Everyone always talks about degrees making someone have some sort of magical time organization and perseverance superpowers, and yet I find degree holders of all sorts who have never done a written household budget and sit on student loan debt like they’re trying to hatch an egg, for decades. It’s about 80%. You want someone goal oriented who will get results and get stuff done? Find the person who paid off all of their debt by 40 in any industry, with debt being a “normal” lifestyle in our nation.
Anyway...
Decided IT was kinda getting boring last year so I picked off ratings to ME CFI (and through a very odd set of circumstances haven’t finished up the SE CFI of all goofy things yet, it’s an incredibly long story that includes brain surgery for a dear friend and the suicide of a family member) and started learning to teach Aviation.
Having a ball. Purposefully seeking out the older/wiser/lifelong instructors as mentors. Don’t mind crusty DPEs either really. (Or Feds for that matter.) Figure these folks know how to simulate students trying to kill me (and their future commercial pax) better than anyone.
Doubt it’ll ever be a career change for me, but I could afford it. Have had friends say I should apply at their 135 du-jour or head to Alaska or whatever to build time. It’s got an appeal to it, but I know without the degree it’s a dead-end in many ways. The hiring binges going on right now mean the typically insufferably low pay is not something that would last too long.
Don’t really care. If I feel like jumping through that hoop, I can. It’s a hoop. I’ve jumped through harder.
It’s a cost/benefit analysis thing and a heart thing at my “advanced age”. No way would I spend the kind of money the “magic” schools get for their gold plated degrees that get special treatment. That money would be better spent flying. I generally tell the kids that, too. I’m honest with them, it may help their career early on, but it’ll cost them a lot of years of economic difficulties if momma and poppa bear aren’t paying.
Love watching the biz. Worked as a ramper for a major (A “legacy” in today’s terminology...) as one of the many many jobs I’ve held over the years. Managed big big tech projects, helped a lot of customers, taught tech, supervised techs, laughed at a lot of bad tech.
Laugh even harder at the drama in the Aviation biz over hour requirements and all the changes since the 90s and then Colgan and... whatever political wind change or silly staffing idea some airline has or goofball change some airline union tries.
But I can guarantee this... solid experience trumps most classroom work. If I ever get stupid enough to raise my hand and say I’ll manage another multi-million dollar tech project, there will likely be fresh grads on the team, but there will certainly be a couple of grizzled vets with no degree whatsoever to keep them and me, honest.
If I were y’all, I wouldn’t let the college lobbyists and politicians and desk jockeys cheapen that. Just my $0.02 which won’t even pay the taxes on a cup of coffee anymore.
I’m old enough my single “High Performance” endorsement worries a younger CFI. Bright guy, too. So years ago he tossed a new one and a “Complex” in my logbook when I wasn’t looking. (Which I now get to explain to everyone who ever looks over my logbook for a rating or any other reason. Haha.) Even after I showed him that changed in 1996.
So whatever. I’m “old”. Don’t care. Going flying later this week.
If you’re young or old, just jump through whatever hoops are presented if you want to do something. It won’t matter ten years later. And the hoops change.
It’s disappointing the degree hoop rarely does in Aviation, but whatever. Jump or don’t. I didn’t have the bucks in 1992 or 3 to keep jumping and ran up a little debt and then realized that was going to be a REALLY bad idea back then, for me personally, anyway.
Made hay while the sun shined elsewhere.
Still flying.
Have fun kids, it goes by really really fast.
Didn't mean to get you hung up on age....I turned 30 during my IOE and It was a kick in the nuts, but by no stretch of the imagination do I think 45 is "old", in the larger scheme of things. For people just entering the 121 world, 45 is getting up there , when you consider you have to retire by 65. I'd imagine most guys in their 40's and 50's don't want to take the QOL hit that a 20 or 30 yo is willing to take, they've mostly already been through that stage of life.
As an aside, I commend you for getting back into it. The GA sector needs more guys like you, and when you get to 121 , if that is your goal , there will be a seat i'm sure.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
So I agree with you that it doesn't make a better pilot and think this ruling is BS (pun only slightly intended), though now, after being on both sides of the coin, I've personally enjoyed working with people who did stuff in life differently than I did and got educated in things that I don't find interesting, and honestly a degree in culinary stuff is more conversation fodder than yet another BS in aviation.
Sitting next to the photojournalism dropout turned bush pilot after some time trying to make it doing travel photography was interesting. Going to groundschool with the philosophy major was interesting. Drinking beers with the guy who studied business at brown and hated being a "sales dbag" was interesting. If anything education and interesting life experiences make your coworkers more tolerable than one more hour of turbine PIC.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
BS, I happen to have direct and expert level knowledge as to what has caused the detrimental effect of small markets. I tried starting a small passenger carrying airline with some other pilots (one a regular and respected member here). Put nearly everything into it including 3 years of my life.
The idiocy of these small towns and their knowledge of aviation business is staggering. Our focus was on providing low cost air service to underserved communities. We needed financial help to get the airline off the ground. We did not want to do EAS (that's a losing game). In a number of cases these communities had federal grants specifically for attracting air service. It wasn't a lot of money but it was enough for the single engine operation we had planned. But they all wanted 30+ passenger Jets or multi engine. One community demanded nothing less than a Caravan. Hell the entire state of Oregon has their head up their collective asses on how to serve the local communities under 500K. Not a single one has secured air service for the public.
In one case a community had a large grant that would fund the entire operation for nearly a year if we ran very frugally. We were even going to give them money back at the end of the year. They still passed on our service demanding an airplane that they could not afford. So instead of letting us give it a try they let the timeline on their grant run out when they couldn't find anyone dumb enough to come in and serve the community at a loss and had to give that money back to the DOT.
Small communities are losing air service because they are clueless about what makes airplanes fly. They think their, at the most, 10-20 passengers a week is enough to cover the cost of a Caravan 2 times day and everything that goes with making that work.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
That's exactly what it is. We even talked about the Chieftain as our aircraft for Zephyr and in the end the requirement and costs for an ATP on a scheduled run at the helm killed the idea of anything with more than 1 engine. And since everyone wants 2 engines out on the wings because they believe it's safer a lot of communities will just have to drive.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
Sure, but that says nothing about their skills at flying an airplane only that they are easier to get locked in a 5x5 room with for hours on end.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
As someone stuck in the back of the airplane nowadays dependent upon you to get me safely where I'm going, I don't give a damn how interesting the person you're sharing the cockpit with is. He can be boring as watching paint dry for all I care. I want him to be experienced and highly competent. If you're bored with him, read a book.
learhawkerbe400
Well-Known Member
Hey, you're not wrong. I think I was perfectly safe, but only because I'd been flying the airplane for quite a while at that point. Had I been more green in the plane, it wouldn't have been safe at all. And I still felt rusty at times even with the years I had in it. It was a hall of a great lifestyle, though.
I'm aware. I just disagree with the changes. Half of my AirTran interview was a customer service interview by HR. I find that absurd, but it's what's happened to pilot hiring departments overs the years.
I just flew with a guy who lives in base and bids short call. He was bragging how he had only flown a couple times the last couple months. He then proceeded to suck and we had to cancel a takeoff clearance, in LGA none the less, bc he was so slow loading the box.
Never flying is all good if you’ve been flying the plane for a while and don’t suck. But don’t suck and then brag you never fly lol.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I’m not against having an ATP to fly scheds in a twin.
I’m vehemently against requiring training that is irrelevant (and probably even negative) as a prerequisite for that ATP.
But I’m weird, I think the regs should realign to apply more similarly between turbine singles and piston twins.
Pilot quals and periodic aircraft weighing are two areas I can think of.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
100% agreement except the idea that something the size of a chieftain requires an ATP for a PIC on a scheduled route but if it's unscheduled it's ok if it's just a commercial pilot. Makes ZERO sense to me. But that rule was a major factor in my airline never "getting off the ground". If I brought in a chieftain or a baron with two engines people would throw money at us but if I suggest any single engine without a PT6 I'm apparently nuts.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I think ATP mins and an FAA designee ride (not some softball company check that allows “retraining”) is a good rock bottom qual to carry pax in something like a ‘jo or a van. You have to get in the mindset the FAA has (rightly IMHO) of holding scheduled ops to a higher standard.
I also think it’s lunacy (and borderline hazardous) to teach multi turbojet V1 procedures to that same ‘jo driver a la CTP programs.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
And that's the part I don't get. If I fly the same route over and over every day or nearly every day it's somehow requires more experience than if I fly the same airplane to a completely different airport that I have never been to everyday. It seems to me to be more difficult to fly to a new airport every day than the same one every day.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Right, but while college may not make you a better pilot, it may widen your horizons enough to make you better employee. Emphasis on the "may" because there are plenty of college educated blowhards as well.
Again I think this is a dumb idea with regard to piloting skillz, but after basically going back to school I'm never ceased to be amazed by things I learn that seem totally unrelated to flying that are incredibly pertinent and things I wish I would have known before hand.