I meant any bachelors. And to my knowledge, that’s true for the Air Force.
Alpa endorsed hour reduction plan.
- Thread starter Wardogg
- Start date
I meant any bachelors. And to my knowledge, that’s true for the Air Force.
RamRise
Well-Known Member
1. I thought that flight schools/ universities like the 1500hr rule because it forces Instructors to stick around longer?
2. The FAA was working on on a "professional development program" that would allow logging of SIC time in certain 135 twin operators that are single pilot. That one seems like the way to go.Why not build the bridge from 250-1500, rather than cheapen the construction to stretch the materials further.
3. Isn't the whole 750, 1000, 1250, ATP-CTP scheme convoluted enough? Do we really need another pathway with this air-carrier "enhanced" training.
4. Classes are and have been full at SKW for at least a few years even though we should be pretty deep into this pilot shortage as it was predicted in articles from 2010-2013. Which carriers aren't getting candidates? No one has failed , is this only because they are partially subsidized by the major partners (United funds mesa's training as I understand)?
5. There is no going back to the 20-30k entry level wages unless we enter some kind of major economic calamity. Not when housing is 1k per month or more for BASIC accommodations in many of the domicile cities, training is 60-90k, a 4yr degree is 50-120k, food is $400 a month, car insurance is 80 a month, cell phone, medical, clothing and so on. There aren't that many ATPs living in their parents basements....that could've only happened in an environment like the early 90's when ratings were still like 20k to achieve. How many more old guys out there (45+, sorry) really want to jump back in at this point? There may not be a shortage, but there also is no more glut, thankfully.
2. The FAA was working on on a "professional development program" that would allow logging of SIC time in certain 135 twin operators that are single pilot. That one seems like the way to go.Why not build the bridge from 250-1500, rather than cheapen the construction to stretch the materials further.
3. Isn't the whole 750, 1000, 1250, ATP-CTP scheme convoluted enough? Do we really need another pathway with this air-carrier "enhanced" training.
4. Classes are and have been full at SKW for at least a few years even though we should be pretty deep into this pilot shortage as it was predicted in articles from 2010-2013. Which carriers aren't getting candidates? No one has failed , is this only because they are partially subsidized by the major partners (United funds mesa's training as I understand)?
5. There is no going back to the 20-30k entry level wages unless we enter some kind of major economic calamity. Not when housing is 1k per month or more for BASIC accommodations in many of the domicile cities, training is 60-90k, a 4yr degree is 50-120k, food is $400 a month, car insurance is 80 a month, cell phone, medical, clothing and so on. There aren't that many ATPs living in their parents basements....that could've only happened in an environment like the early 90's when ratings were still like 20k to achieve. How many more old guys out there (45+, sorry) really want to jump back in at this point? There may not be a shortage, but there also is no more glut, thankfully.
denverpilot
Well-Known Member
Hmm. Bailed out of one of the magical “Aviation colleges” in the early 90s, here.
And no, 45 isn’t old. But you gave me a chuckle.
(My instructor is pushing 80 and teaches every day. He stopped bothering to update his main logbook somewhere above 35,000 hours, started his first commercial flying job in the DC-2, ended it on the DC-10, and has been running his own flight school ever since. There is life outside of the airlines, and a lot of flying too. ;-) )
I went into telecom and IT, made six figures on merit real quick. That’s a significant difference in Aviation and a lot of serious pro jobs, actually. You can pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you bust it out.
Most do have pro certifications and licensure, but the degree itself isn’t revered 100% over experience and knowledge. I’d kill for a college grad in my IT hiring that knew anything at all about how computers actually make or save businesses money, and I could care less that they sat through a degree program if they know business and have good tech skills, but I digress.
(The story of the CS Masters who didn’t know how her computer booted, made me chuckle. BTDT, seen it, got the t-shirt. I’ve held more interesting conversations about tech with many pilots vs new CS grads over the decades. Ha.)
So, never did finish the degree but made that money a decade sooner than anyone who stayed in Aviation in the early 90s (... mmmm, Mesa...), and paid off everything including house, four vehicles (five if you count the one on permanent loan to an organization), and co-own a bugsmasher hangared at the local ‘drome, airplane and hangar owned outright.
Everyone always talks about degrees making someone have some sort of magical time organization and perseverance superpowers, and yet I find degree holders of all sorts who have never done a written household budget and sit on student loan debt like they’re trying to hatch an egg, for decades. It’s about 80%. You want someone goal oriented who will get results and get stuff done? Find the person who paid off all of their debt by 40 in any industry, with debt being a “normal” lifestyle in our nation.
Anyway...
Decided IT was kinda getting boring last year so I picked off ratings to ME CFI (and through a very odd set of circumstances haven’t finished up the SE CFI of all goofy things yet, it’s an incredibly long story that includes brain surgery for a dear friend and the suicide of a family member) and started learning to teach Aviation.
Having a ball. Purposefully seeking out the older/wiser/lifelong instructors as mentors. Don’t mind crusty DPEs either really. (Or Feds for that matter.) Figure these folks know how to simulate students trying to kill me (and their future commercial pax) better than anyone.
Doubt it’ll ever be a career change for me, but I could afford it. Have had friends say I should apply at their 135 du-jour or head to Alaska or whatever to build time. It’s got an appeal to it, but I know without the degree it’s a dead-end in many ways. The hiring binges going on right now mean the typically insufferably low pay is not something that would last too long.
Don’t really care. If I feel like jumping through that hoop, I can. It’s a hoop. I’ve jumped through harder.
It’s a cost/benefit analysis thing and a heart thing at my “advanced age”. No way would I spend the kind of money the “magic” schools get for their gold plated degrees that get special treatment. That money would be better spent flying. I generally tell the kids that, too. I’m honest with them, it may help their career early on, but it’ll cost them a lot of years of economic difficulties if momma and poppa bear aren’t paying.
Love watching the biz. Worked as a ramper for a major (A “legacy” in today’s terminology...) as one of the many many jobs I’ve held over the years. Managed big big tech projects, helped a lot of customers, taught tech, supervised techs, laughed at a lot of bad tech.
Laugh even harder at the drama in the Aviation biz over hour requirements and all the changes since the 90s and then Colgan and... whatever political wind change or silly staffing idea some airline has or goofball change some airline union tries.
But I can guarantee this... solid experience trumps most classroom work. If I ever get stupid enough to raise my hand and say I’ll manage another multi-million dollar tech project, there will likely be fresh grads on the team, but there will certainly be a couple of grizzled vets with no degree whatsoever to keep them and me, honest.
If I were y’all, I wouldn’t let the college lobbyists and politicians and desk jockeys cheapen that. Just my $0.02 which won’t even pay the taxes on a cup of coffee anymore.
I’m old enough my single “High Performance” endorsement worries a younger CFI. Bright guy, too. So years ago he tossed a new one and a “Complex” in my logbook when I wasn’t looking. (Which I now get to explain to everyone who ever looks over my logbook for a rating or any other reason. Haha.) Even after I showed him that changed in 1996.
(I think it was ‘96. It’s been a while.) So whatever. I’m “old”. Don’t care. Going flying later this week.
If you’re young or old, just jump through whatever hoops are presented if you want to do something. It won’t matter ten years later. And the hoops change.
It’s disappointing the degree hoop rarely does in Aviation, but whatever. Jump or don’t. I didn’t have the bucks in 1992 or 3 to keep jumping and ran up a little debt and then realized that was going to be a REALLY bad idea back then, for me personally, anyway.
Made hay while the sun shined elsewhere.
Still flying.
Have fun kids, it goes by really really fast.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Personally, I would take Pilot A. The low-time, high-performing guys are usually excellent pilots, and have good attitudes. Bonus, if the guy is well rounded I might be able to have a conversation other than “Work, Work, Work, CONTRACT!”
I love my job because I have a passion for aviation, and I enjoy the people that I work with. 90% of being a good airline pilot is being able to relate to those around you, and work together. 10% is actual flying ability. So yeah, I value the 90% part more than the 10%.
Keep in mind who I work for too. Remember we do not have a technical interview. Why do you think that is? What does that say about what my company values in the hiring process?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
As a customer, that scares the hell out of me.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
It really shouldn’t. The training program is good at weeding people out who don’t belong.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
The technical interview is a career in the military or years at the regionals. At this point everyone knows how to fly the plane.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Look guys - 1,500 was a huge leap, and wasn't sustainable. While you guys are understandably opposed because of the increased pay that comes with increased scarcity, this has resulted in many small markets losing air service, which has a detrimental effect of billions to the US economy, not to mention tens of thousands of jobs lost.
Compromise was bound to come. Still an improvement over 250 hours, but the market simply couldn't sustain 1,500 hours. It's not a matter of carriers being greedy - running a regional airline just no longer becomes profitable at a certain labor level.
Compromise was bound to come. Still an improvement over 250 hours, but the market simply couldn't sustain 1,500 hours. It's not a matter of carriers being greedy - running a regional airline just no longer becomes profitable at a certain labor level.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Yep.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I think its slightly disingenuous to blame loss of air service in many of those markets solely (or even largely) on the 1500 hour rule.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
We're not talking a sim ride, so it's not about knowing how to fly an airplane. Flying an airplane is a skill. A technical interview isn't about skill, it's about knowledge. I know lots of "good sticks" who couldn't tell you what half the stuff on an approach plate means.
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
Yes, even prior to the ATP wasn't it quite unusual for 121 carriers to hire with less than 1,500 hours? I believe 2007 was one of the few times this happened in any significant numbers. Also air service was declining to many smaller cities for years prior to the ATP rule, and I haven't seen any evidence that the ATP rule has accelerated that trend.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
This same argument is being made for med schools and bar admissions exams.
Hell some states have talked about doing away with the bar completely, arguing that if you can get into, and then through law school, that you've done enough to prove that you can do the job.
The question is the same lawyers, doctor and pilots: do you trust your life to someone who may not have been vetted as well as those who became licensed before the reduction in standards.
Maybe it means that 90% of the applicants are at the same level, and a few extra make it through who are sub par. The argument would then be that the market will solve the problem by firing those who can't hack it.
But I think it was you who said recently the problem with libertarians is they are too optimistic when it comes to their view of human nature. In the same fashion, I have no faith in cheap regional airlines to police their own when they NEED flights to go out.
And then we end up back with another 3407.
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
Three words: Back the PAC.
Cloud Surfer
All Roads lead to Trantor
This NPRM stinks of aviation university lobbyists and has the taint of regional airline executives written all over it. The 1500 hrs was doing its job exactly as Congress had intended and was slowly choking the regionals. A good thing in my opinion, sorry I am biased and do not like the regionals, I remember how crappy things were before the 1500 hr rule was enacted. If this thing goes through, and it most likely will, it just floods the regional pilot market with potential new-hires allowing them to retract bonuses first year and they will definitely fill classes. Thereby extending the regionals' lifeline as the majors ramp up hiring through 2023.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Bro...wayyyy TL; DR.Hmm. Bailed out of one of the magical “Aviation colleges” in the early 90s, here.
And no, 45 isn’t old. But you gave me a chuckle.
(My instructor is pushing 80 and teaches every day. He stopped bothering to update his main logbook somewhere above 35,000 hours, started his first commercial flying job in the DC-2, ended it on the DC-10, and has been running his own flight school ever since. There is life outside of the airlines, and a lot of flying too. ;-) )
I went into telecom and IT, made six figures on merit real quick. That’s a significant difference in Aviation and a lot of serious pro jobs, actually. You can pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you bust it out.
Most do have pro certifications and licensure, but the degree itself isn’t revered 100% over experience and knowledge. I’d kill for a college grad in my IT hiring that knew anything at all about how computers actually make or save businesses money, and I could care less that they sat through a degree program if they know business and have good tech skills, but I digress.
(The story of the CS Masters who didn’t know how her computer booted, made me chuckle. BTDT, seen it, got the t-shirt. I’ve held more interesting conversations about tech with many pilots vs new CS grads over the decades. Ha.)
So, never did finish the degree but made that money a decade sooner than anyone who stayed in Aviation in the early 90s (... mmmm, Mesa...), and paid off everything including house, four vehicles (five if you count the one on permanent loan to an organization), and co-own a bugsmasher hangared at the local ‘drome, airplane and hangar owned outright.
Everyone always talks about degrees making someone have some sort of magical time organization and perseverance superpowers, and yet I find degree holders of all sorts who have never done a written household budget and sit on student loan debt like they’re trying to hatch an egg, for decades. It’s about 80%. You want someone goal oriented who will get results and get stuff done? Find the person who paid off all of their debt by 40 in any industry, with debt being a “normal” lifestyle in our nation.
Anyway...
Decided IT was kinda getting boring last year so I picked off ratings to ME CFI (and through a very odd set of circumstances haven’t finished up the SE CFI of all goofy things yet, it’s an incredibly long story that includes brain surgery for a dear friend and the suicide of a family member) and started learning to teach Aviation.
Having a ball. Purposefully seeking out the older/wiser/lifelong instructors as mentors. Don’t mind crusty DPEs either really. (Or Feds for that matter.) Figure these folks know how to simulate students trying to kill me (and their future commercial pax) better than anyone.
Doubt it’ll ever be a career change for me, but I could afford it. Have had friends say I should apply at their 135 du-jour or head to Alaska or whatever to build time. It’s got an appeal to it, but I know without the degree it’s a dead-end in many ways. The hiring binges going on right now mean the typically insufferably low pay is not something that would last too long.
Don’t really care. If I feel like jumping through that hoop, I can. It’s a hoop. I’ve jumped through harder.
It’s a cost/benefit analysis thing and a heart thing at my “advanced age”. No way would I spend the kind of money the “magic” schools get for their gold plated degrees that get special treatment. That money would be better spent flying. I generally tell the kids that, too. I’m honest with them, it may help their career early on, but it’ll cost them a lot of years of economic difficulties if momma and poppa bear aren’t paying.
Love watching the biz. Worked as a ramper for a major (A “legacy” in today’s terminology...) as one of the many many jobs I’ve held over the years. Managed big big tech projects, helped a lot of customers, taught tech, supervised techs, laughed at a lot of bad tech.
Laugh even harder at the drama in the Aviation biz over hour requirements and all the changes since the 90s and then Colgan and... whatever political wind change or silly staffing idea some airline has or goofball change some airline union tries.
But I can guarantee this... solid experience trumps most classroom work. If I ever get stupid enough to raise my hand and say I’ll manage another multi-million dollar tech project, there will likely be fresh grads on the team, but there will certainly be a couple of grizzled vets with no degree whatsoever to keep them and me, honest.
If I were y’all, I wouldn’t let the college lobbyists and politicians and desk jockeys cheapen that. Just my $0.02 which won’t even pay the taxes on a cup of coffee anymore.
I’m old enough my single “High Performance” endorsement worries a younger CFI. Bright guy, too. So years ago he tossed a new one and a “Complex” in my logbook when I wasn’t looking. (Which I now get to explain to everyone who ever looks over my logbook for a rating or any other reason. Haha.) Even after I showed him that changed in 1996.
So whatever. I’m “old”. Don’t care. Going flying later this week.
If you’re young or old, just jump through whatever hoops are presented if you want to do something. It won’t matter ten years later. And the hoops change.
It’s disappointing the degree hoop rarely does in Aviation, but whatever. Jump or don’t. I didn’t have the bucks in 1992 or 3 to keep jumping and ran up a little debt and then realized that was going to be a REALLY bad idea back then, for me personally, anyway.
Made hay while the sun shined elsewhere.
Still flying.
Have fun kids, it goes by really really fast.
Something something increasing standards for service something costs of doing business something something availability of suitable airframes
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I'm in agreement with others than hiring standards actually decline as a result of this policy. The incentive to hire a marginal pilot is certainly greater when supply is limited. Renslow had 3,379 hours of experience the day he couldn't recognize or respond to a stall.
CirrusMonkey
No Real Usefulness
I am a member of the ALPA PAC. Last month we spent 3 days lobbying in DC in favor of H.R. 2997. Amongst other things, this bill keeps the 1500 hour rule intact as it stands now. ALPA is adoment about keeping this rule in place and so was every single of the 50 districts that we spoke to. Republican or Democrat.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
There are marginal markets that are above the traffic levels for EAS, but marginal in terms of their profitability. Those are the first to go when schedules have to be cut back. I don't really have a dog in the fight since I work for a large hub airport, but that's the argument Airport Council International is making on their behalf.