Few Air Force Aircraft Have New, Fully Functional Transponder
- Thread starter RDoug
- Start date
Lawman
Well-Known Member
You guys have to understand 2 things about the ADSB requirement on military aircraft, and believe me I totally want this system or the ability for it to be integrated because it’s just good mitigation for enhanced safety.
1. ADSB integration has to go through aircraft Program management offices same as all other equipment upgrades. That means in a world of finite money this system may be competing directly with badly needed mission systems to enhance lethality or survivability, many of which have run woefully behind in the continuous resolution funding model we exist in. As much as I and others want these systems when you are weighing something like this against an enhanced ability as a warfighter it’s hard to make that call.
2. ADS-B is an exploitable vulnerability in operational security that will allow may hostile forces greater clarity to our activities and allow them to counter. If you’re a dictator harboring nuclear ambitions and you see a whole lot of activity that doesn’t normally happen over Whiteman AFB that may tell you something. Similarly actions like Panama, would allow multiple hours of preparation when you can via the internet watch all the C-17s land at Pope AFB to pick up the 82nd about to Paradrop into country X. Even the idea that we simply blind the system when necessary is in a way showing your cards. That means suddenly the air defense systems all go to full state of alert and the fight just got harder.
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1. ADSB integration has to go through aircraft Program management offices same as all other equipment upgrades. That means in a world of finite money this system may be competing directly with badly needed mission systems to enhance lethality or survivability, many of which have run woefully behind in the continuous resolution funding model we exist in. As much as I and others want these systems when you are weighing something like this against an enhanced ability as a warfighter it’s hard to make that call.
2. ADS-B is an exploitable vulnerability in operational security that will allow may hostile forces greater clarity to our activities and allow them to counter. If you’re a dictator harboring nuclear ambitions and you see a whole lot of activity that doesn’t normally happen over Whiteman AFB that may tell you something. Similarly actions like Panama, would allow multiple hours of preparation when you can via the internet watch all the C-17s land at Pope AFB to pick up the 82nd about to Paradrop into country X. Even the idea that we simply blind the system when necessary is in a way showing your cards. That means suddenly the air defense systems all go to full state of alert and the fight just got harder.
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Soku39
Well-Known Member
You could get the same information from satellites, observers on the ground or tracking known service members mobile IP addresses.
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denverpilot
Well-Known Member
It’s worse than that. When you realize that non-participating targets aren’t sent to you, and when they are, there’s not even enough bandwidth to confirm you received it... one missed transmission means you’ll hit the other aircraft.
It’s not properly designed as a Safety life-critical system but it’s marketed as one. Someone will eventually get bit by it.
Not to mention that coverage is rarely assured at low altitude. Take a look at the deployment interactive map on the FAA website to see where it does NOT cover. At all. And which altitudes.
Then look at authentication of data. None. It isn’t that hard to transmit fake data into it.
All taken together, it’s one of the most half-assed Safety system engineering jobs I’ve ever seen. Because it wasn’t engineered to be a Safety system.
Slapping weather and other stuff on top of it was also a bad idea since those things go away in high traffic density. Great if the System is prioritizing traffic “safety” but we already know that it’s not designed correctly to do that 100% of the time. Then we drop “Safety” weather data to send incomplete traffic data. LOL.
It’s pitiful. We’ll be paying on it for ten more years still when “NexGen Version 2” is announced to replace it. Not that there’s any solid definition of what “NexGen” was supposed to accomplish.
Or just continue looking outside and clearing with the radio too...
Lawman
Well-Known Member
Oh I didn’t say it was perfect, but I know you’ve seen some of the high side intel on some very serious threats to Aviation that new electronic monitoring systems provide.
Who needs a 300 NM search radar to emit and give its position away when you can just watch and wait until you’ve got them in the no escape zone.
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denverpilot
Well-Known Member
Of course. None of the gadgets yet has been designed to replace the eyeball.
Yeah, they’re better than nothing but RELYING on them or being lulled into thinking they’re showing you all traffic, is a huge mental mistake.
Even after full deployment and the mandatory date, there’s all sorts of places non-participating aircraft will be operating and invisible to the system. And one poorly placed antenna on the fuselage missing a transmission from something nearby due to blockage, and even some participating aircraft will be invisible.
Not to mention outages, both aloft and on the ground. Think everyone will notice the ADS-B outage NOTAMs puked onto an iPad screen with 200 others for anywhere along the route? Nope. One ground based UAT receiver dead or a fiber cut to the tower, and half the traffic not-equipped with Mode-S disappears magically. Or vice versa, the Mode-S processing back end pukes and only UAT targets show up.
Haven’t heard any controllers say “Not receiving your UAT but am receiving your Mode C” yet. But that’ll happen.
Or “anybody tell you guys that there hasn’t been any weather transmitted up for the last hour?”
Of course. None of the gadgets yet has been designed to replace the eyeball.
Yeah, they’re better than nothing but RELYING on them or being lulled into thinking they’re showing you all traffic, is a huge mental mistake.
Even after full deployment and the mandatory date, there’s all sorts of places non-participating aircraft will be operating and invisible to the system. And one poorly placed antenna on the fuselage missing a transmission from something nearby due to blockage, and even some participating aircraft will be invisible.
Not to mention outages, both aloft and on the ground. Think everyone will notice the ADS-B outage NOTAMs puked onto an iPad screen with 200 others for anywhere along the route? Nope. One ground based UAT receiver dead or a fiber cut to the tower, and half the traffic not-equipped with Mode-S disappears magically. Or vice versa, the Mode-S processing back end pukes and only UAT targets show up.
Haven’t heard any controllers say “Not receiving your UAT but am receiving your Mode C” yet. But that’ll happen.
Or “anybody tell you guys that there hasn’t been any weather transmitted up for the last hour?”
So what you are saying is that a future midair will still say something along the lines of "failure to maintain safe separation” because people will be lazy, rely solely on ADS-B, and still not look outside
Roger Roger
I am le tired
denverpilot
Well-Known Member
Yep. But it’ll just be the same old like alway used, “Pilot failed to see and avoid other traffic.”
Difference is, compared to yesteryear the pilot will Be feeling comfy that none of those blips they’re staring at inside on the panel is converging on their flight path and will die thinking they had the perfect traffic data FAA forced them to buy.
All safe and snug in their NexGen blankie.
Shhhh. Nappy time.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
I don't know, bandwidth get cheaper and cheaper every day.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Of course. None of the gadgets yet has been designed to replace the eyeball.
Yeah, they’re better than nothing but RELYING on them or being lulled into thinking they’re showing you all traffic, is a huge mental mistake.
Even after full deployment and the mandatory date, there’s all sorts of places non-participating aircraft will be operating and invisible to the system. And one poorly placed antenna on the fuselage missing a transmission from something nearby due to blockage, and even some participating aircraft will be invisible.
Not to mention outages, both aloft and on the ground. Think everyone will notice the ADS-B outage NOTAMs puked onto an iPad screen with 200 others for anywhere along the route? Nope. One ground based UAT receiver dead or a fiber cut to the tower, and half the traffic not-equipped with Mode-S disappears magically. Or vice versa, the Mode-S processing back end pukes and only UAT targets show up.
Haven’t heard any controllers say “Not receiving your UAT but am receiving your Mode C” yet. But that’ll happen.
Or “anybody tell you guys that there hasn’t been any weather transmitted up for the last hour?”
Gonna be a bunch of unemployed TALL KING and SPOON REST operators out there.........