Eff you SWA
- Thread starter NovemberEcho
- Start date
inigo88
Composite-lover
The ontimeflights site creates a strawman argument by purposefully portraying ATC technology as being decades out of date. As of 2015 all 20 Air Route Traffic Control Centers in the continental US upgraded to ERAM - The Nextgen ADS-B compatible replacement of the old HOST computer system. Most also no longer use "paper slips" (flight strips). They're also obfuscating the overall point in stupid analogies. "Can you believe ATC doesn't use basic GPS technology like what's in your smartphone today?" (Actually I can you morons, I'm all for ADS-B supplementing the ground based radar system, but getting rid of it entirely will be really bad news when other traffic forgets to switch on their transponder, or hijackers intentionally switch it off, etc. Plus the deadline for implementation is 2020 and hasn't even happened yet.)
I took a tour of Los Angeles ARTCC last month and was blown away. It was my first tour of an enroute facility, and other than being generally impressed walking into a room of more than 100 people on the midnight shift, I was really surprised by all the ERAM upgrades. The Traffic Management Unit (TMU) is like floor to ceiling LCDs showing the status of the NAS, and other than oceanic (which shouldn't count
) paper flight strips are totally gone.
This is the overall setup post ERAM, D-side on the left and R-side on the right (this photo was taken in an ATC lab but contains the same equipment):
The R-side is the radar controller that talks to aircraft and separates them by radar. The D-side is the assistant controller for that sector. My original understanding of a D-side was someone who squinted at and shuffled flight progress strips around, and answered interphone calls. These days the flight strips have been replaced with an LCD screen called URET, and the D-side uses URET as a tool to try and predict downstream traffic conflicts based on routes and time (ETAs over fixes, etc) and resolve them before the R-side ever sees them.
More on URET: http://automation.forthillgroup.com/story/URET
The thing that kept surprising me about the enroute environment was how much emphasis is put on solving problems before they happen, and how the TMUs work to reduce congestion at a certain airport by working upstream to institute gate holds at the departure airports (the alternative of sitting in holding patterns on STARs until minimum fuel is worse).
So for you guys griping about NextGen and privatization of ATC being the silver bullet that will get rid of gate holds - your argument has no basis in reality. The traffic capacity of the national ATC system is a known thing, and as soon as it reaches capacity the cogs in the machine spring into motion and start working backwards up the chain to kill the problem at its source (gate holds).
While controller staffing and training plays a role, the overall problem is every airline scheduling the same departure and arrival pushes at the same times - there's only so much pavement you can use for takeoff and landing, and so little lateral and vertical separation you can put between airplanes.
This is the disfunctional price you pay for a "free-market", de-regulated airline industry.
I took a tour of Los Angeles ARTCC last month and was blown away. It was my first tour of an enroute facility, and other than being generally impressed walking into a room of more than 100 people on the midnight shift, I was really surprised by all the ERAM upgrades. The Traffic Management Unit (TMU) is like floor to ceiling LCDs showing the status of the NAS, and other than oceanic (which shouldn't count
) paper flight strips are totally gone.This is the overall setup post ERAM, D-side on the left and R-side on the right (this photo was taken in an ATC lab but contains the same equipment):
The R-side is the radar controller that talks to aircraft and separates them by radar. The D-side is the assistant controller for that sector. My original understanding of a D-side was someone who squinted at and shuffled flight progress strips around, and answered interphone calls. These days the flight strips have been replaced with an LCD screen called URET, and the D-side uses URET as a tool to try and predict downstream traffic conflicts based on routes and time (ETAs over fixes, etc) and resolve them before the R-side ever sees them.
More on URET: http://automation.forthillgroup.com/story/URET
The thing that kept surprising me about the enroute environment was how much emphasis is put on solving problems before they happen, and how the TMUs work to reduce congestion at a certain airport by working upstream to institute gate holds at the departure airports (the alternative of sitting in holding patterns on STARs until minimum fuel is worse).
So for you guys griping about NextGen and privatization of ATC being the silver bullet that will get rid of gate holds - your argument has no basis in reality. The traffic capacity of the national ATC system is a known thing, and as soon as it reaches capacity the cogs in the machine spring into motion and start working backwards up the chain to kill the problem at its source (gate holds).
While controller staffing and training plays a role, the overall problem is every airline scheduling the same departure and arrival pushes at the same times - there's only so much pavement you can use for takeoff and landing, and so little lateral and vertical separation you can put between airplanes.
This is the disfunctional price you pay for a "free-market", de-regulated airline industry.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Awesome post. I always think it's funny when people are like "omg paper strips! How quaint!". We use them at my facility. It's by far the most convenient, and simplest tool. As approach, we don't have the time or D-sides that centers do to update electronic strips. It's by far much easier just to write down altitude and airspeed changes etc on a strip, and the biggest thing we use them for is confirmation or make it easier for the relieving controller to get the picture. People like ontimeflights try to make it sound like we use the strips to track flights and it's all we have.
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Ash Williams
Well-Known Member
Bingo.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I don't think it would fix it. I am not in favor of privatizing the ATC system.
But, still: when ATC fails, the airlines pay. Unsat.
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
Nobody knew that healthcare could be so complicated
denverpilot
Well-Known Member
Last time I was in a facility, the R-side was one guy or gal covering three sectors usually covered by multiple R-sides.
D-sides were the empty chairs that never got staffed properly with maybe one D-side waking around multiple R-sides.
Especially on late shifts. No visitors during those.
If a tour came through, someone would be called back from break to act like they were doing something on a D-side for the visitors in the most prominently visible positions near the tour path.
Half joking, half not. Maybe it's better today. Hahaha.
Jimmy_Norton
Well-Known Member
My biggest issue with the proposed plan was that General Aviation was going to get one seat on the BoD. So who do we send, NBAA or AOPA? They have two very different priorities. We need to have two seats, one for corporate aviation, and one for the little guys. My boss won't care if we have to spend $100 more a flight, he will care when the airlines get prioritized even more than they do now. The guy getting the $100 hamburger isn't going to care about not being able to fly the Delta only SID out of LGA, but he will care if his hamburger doubles in price.
denverpilot
Well-Known Member
AOPA is for the "Little guy". I almost had Diet Coke come out of my nose at that one. LOL.