Eff you SWA

the system it replaced was basically individualized for that facility. You had 20 artcc's and had to create a single piece of software that everyone could agree to and work with. That is a big issue in any situation, not just atc.

And it is something that's equally crippling, and equally prevalent, in private industry. Worse, in many sectors, than you could possibly believe. Infrastructure is a cost center, and as a general rule it's nearly impossible to monetize it. The effects on the bottom line from not investing in infrastructure are generally not considered, because they're part of a long-term strategy and corporate focus is almost always quarterly.

Infrastructure costs money. Safety-critical infrastructure costs A LOT OF MONEY. Even tier IV datacenters running 2N+1 on critical systems, outages still happen... and for a datacenter, infrastructure is quite literally the entire business... and the pressure is relatively high to economize anywhere they can.

Let me give you a concrete example—Security systems, while present, are typically OTS and staffed by people who are inadequately trained on their operation. While sharing the same database, they may have different frontend software and procedures at various DC buildings, leading to different backend data for customers and entities who are authorized access depending on where the customer record was created. Many of them hire NOC, remote hands, and security personnel at the lowest rate; I once social-engineered my way into a datacenter that, at its front door, had iris scanners, thumbprint readers, keycard readers (with PIN auth) within man-traps, and a rigorous front-desk check-in procedure, simply by claiming the cart just inside the door had my hardware on it after a shift change. That datacenter hosted, at the time, such companies as Microsoft (though what datacenter doesn't...), Amazon (ditto), eBay, PayPal, and so on. ("Interconnects considered useful.")
While that datacenter had palmprint readers on the cages, it also had a standard raised floor with no underfloor partitioning, monitoring, or intrusion detection. Simply pulling a tile in a four-post rack with hot-side air blocks gave physical access to any other cage. Had I been a bad actor, I could have compromised the entire system with little effort. (It is considered impossible to secure a system to which someone has physical access.)

The man traps, iris scanners, palmprint readers, keycards, etc, all do represent elements of defense, but the way they're designed and implemented is effectively to provide cheap bling to sell management on the concept. Now, granted, when it's 3am and I show up at a datacenter in pajama bottoms to go balls-deep into a failing storage system, I don't want, as the customer, to spend five minutes waiting for them to cross-check everything—which is why I bypassed it, in this case—but that's one reason that running things so as not to piss off your customers can, when taken too far, be a catastrophic failure.

Then you have the scale of the operation, and the multitude of other parties that interact with it. On top of all that you throw in the wonderful federal procurement process and you have systems being fielded on 10+ year old proprietary hardware and software.

Computer hardware does not typically run slower over time, nor does software typically develop emergent behavior. Something that was built ten years ago, which adequately serves its function and purpose, does not necessarily need to be updated or upgraded just because it's old. This is a fallacy that has cost money that's very likely beyond measure over the course of technological advancement.

People like shiny things. They like having the latest, greatest, gadgety-est things, and they're often willing to take the risk of infant mortality, emergent behavior at scale, and other badness. In infrastructure, that risk—as with any risk—must be justified. It's not enough to upgrade something just because there's a new version out. (Sidebar—I blame Microsoft for the general attitude of "gotta patch! gotta patch! New update! Updated drivers! New patches! Gotta stay up to date!" ... in reality, it's ridiculous to do that for the reasons mentioned above.)

ATC is not Windows. It is not something that should be run for profit, directly or indirectly. It is a safety-critical component of the national airspace system, staffed by consummate professionals doing an incredible job on a daily basis, built with safety as the number-one priority, and bling far behind.

As above, safe, orderly, expedient. In that order.

-Fox
 
Is part of the fear of modernization the chance that a cushy gig gets disrupted?
If by cushy gig you mean being a pilot/copilot, for a major, and making more than the guys/gals moving 2,600+ aircraft a day, six days a week, around thunderstorms, in and out of the busiest airport in the world, then YES that is the gig I'm talking about! We aren't here for the airlines. We are here because PEOPLE (not Delta, American, Southwest, etc.) are flying. That Baron, Piper, etc. is just as important as the MD88, B757, etc. Some of you seem to forget that you're not the only one in the sky and it is the airlines creating their own delays through their scheduling of flights. Not everyone can leave NYC between 5 and 8 PM!
 
The modern equivalent? You mean something that can do 1.9GFLOPS at 244mhz?

I mean, a raspberry pi is like $50 delivered and it will do better than that.

No, i mean the modern system that is to computing technology today that the Cray was in 1985
 
No, i mean the modern system that is to computing technology today that the Cray was in 1985

I honestly don't know if you could compare it like that - computing is a lot different now and the progressing isn't linear.

Supposedly the Subway Taihu Light cost $273 million. That's according to Wikipedia.

Supercomputers aren't really the thing to compare because they're not "general computing machines" in the same sense that your laptop is. That said - he does hve a point about "good fast and cheap pick two" being inaccurate in a lot of ways.
 
And it is something that's equally crippling, and equally prevalent, in private industry. Worse, in many sectors, than you could possibly believe. Infrastructure is a cost center, and as a general rule it's nearly impossible to monetize it. The effects on the bottom line from not investing in infrastructure are generally not considered, because they're part of a long-term strategy and corporate focus is almost always quarterly.

Infrastructure costs money. Safety-critical infrastructure costs A LOT OF MONEY. Even tier IV datacenters running 2N+1 on critical systems, outages still happen... and for a datacenter, infrastructure is quite literally the entire business... and the pressure is relatively high to economize anywhere they can.

Let me give you a concrete example—Security systems, while present, are typically OTS and staffed by people who are inadequately trained on their operation. While sharing the same database, they may have different frontend software and procedures at various DC buildings, leading to different backend data for customers and entities who are authorized access depending on where the customer record was created. Many of them hire NOC, remote hands, and security personnel at the lowest rate; I once social-engineered my way into a datacenter that, at its front door, had iris scanners, thumbprint readers, keycard readers (with PIN auth) within man-traps, and a rigorous front-desk check-in procedure, simply by claiming the cart just inside the door had my hardware on it after a shift change. That datacenter hosted, at the time, such companies as Microsoft (though what datacenter doesn't...), Amazon (ditto), eBay, PayPal, and so on. ("Interconnects considered useful.")
While that datacenter had palmprint readers on the cages, it also had a standard raised floor with no underfloor partitioning, monitoring, or intrusion detection. Simply pulling a tile in a four-post rack with hot-side air blocks gave physical access to any other cage. Had I been a bad actor, I could have compromised the entire system with little effort. (It is considered impossible to secure a system to which someone has physical access.)

The man traps, iris scanners, palmprint readers, keycards, etc, all do represent elements of defense, but the way they're designed and implemented is effectively to provide cheap bling to sell management on the concept. Now, granted, when it's 3am and I show up at a datacenter in pajama bottoms to go balls-deep into a failing storage system, I don't want, as the customer, to spend five minutes waiting for them to cross-check everything—which is why I bypassed it, in this case—but that's one reason that running things so as not to piss off your customers can, when taken too far, be a catastrophic failure.



Computer hardware does not typically run slower over time, nor does software typically develop emergent behavior. Something that was built ten years ago, which adequately serves its function and purpose, does not necessarily need to be updated or upgraded just because it's old. This is a fallacy that has cost money that's very likely beyond measure over the course of technological advancement.

People like shiny things. They like having the latest, greatest, gadgety-est things, and they're often willing to take the risk of infant mortality, emergent behavior at scale, and other badness. In infrastructure, that risk—as with any risk—must be justified. It's not enough to upgrade something just because there's a new version out. (Sidebar—I blame Microsoft for the general attitude of "gotta patch! gotta patch! New update! Updated drivers! New patches! Gotta stay up to date!" ... in reality, it's ridiculous to do that for the reasons mentioned above.)

ATC is not Windows. It is not something that should be run for profit, directly or indirectly. It is a safety-critical component of the national airspace system, staffed by consummate professionals doing an incredible job on a daily basis, built with safety as the number-one priority, and bling far behind.

As above, safe, orderly, expedient. In that order.

-Fox
Lots of good and correct info fox. When I was talking about 10+ year old hardware being used I was going down the road of support.

When you install a "new" system on proprietary hardware that is 10 years old chances are that it is no longer being produced. Putting you in situations where the cost to maintain increases exponentially rather quickly.

This goes back to the gov procurement process where 10 years earlier when the contract was signed everything was froze. Then the system was developed, tested...tested some more...took a dump a few times then finally makes it to an operational capacity.

Where the contract was very narrow in it's requirements down to proprietary hardware and os that severely limit the ability to use off the shelf components for replacement and upgrade.

It is just a death spiral. I am not a professional in IT but with the level of involvement I have had with the government in general I know they do IT probably the worst someone could do.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
So much exactly this.

I started to make a post trying to highlight this, and then I just gave up. I'm running out of strength to argue with people who think everything complex is simple because they know just a little bit...and are too ignorant to realize how much they don't know.

-Fox

Well, without the big picture, pilots demanding how the inner workings of how ATC should work is akin to a passenger jamming his phone in my face and saying "The weather is FINE, what's the real reason for the delay?"
 
Well, without the big picture, pilots demanding how the inner workings of how ATC should work is akin to a passenger jamming his phone in my face and saying "The weather is FINE, what's the real reason for the delay?"

The assumption that everything is simple if you could just figure out the appropriate analogy is one of the biggest problems of our age.

The democratization of knowledge is awesome, but the total lack of respect for the time it takes to learn something "well" drives me nuts.

In all fairness I see this among pilots as well, "I don't need to know that, why do I have to know about that to fly the airplane?!" You don't, but knowing this bit of trivia makes you a better aviator.
 
In all fairness I see this among pilots as well, "I don't need to know that, why do I have to know about that to fly the airplane?!" You don't, but knowing this bit of trivia makes you a better aviator.

Pilots are some of the worst at being offended and angered if someone remotely criticizes what they do or how they do it; yet turn around and criticize many things and areas....aviation or otherwise....they themselves have no specific knowledge of. :)
 
The crew from WN476 last night from EWR to IND sure went out of the way to blame the delay on ATC. (1 hour 2 minutes late off the gate)

PA: "Sorry for the delay folks. It was not our fault today. It was Air Traffic Controls fault."

So there's at least one dude doing what he's told. (Or maybe it really was ATC's fault)
 
The crew from WN476 last night from EWR to IND sure went out of the way to blame the delay on ATC. (1 hour 2 minutes late off the gate)

PA: "Sorry for the delay folks. It was not our fault today. It was Air Traffic Controls fault."

So there's at least one dude doing what he's told. (Or maybe it really was ATC's fault)

ZDC had to evacuate yesterday. Caused all sorts of issues.

Btw what airline is WN? We don't use 2 letter airline identifiers.
 
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The crew from WN476 last night from EWR to IND sure went out of the way to blame the delay on ATC. (1 hour 2 minutes late off the gate)

PA: "Sorry for the delay folks. It was not our fault today. It was Air Traffic Controls fault."

I'd say that WN pilot announcement was 100% factual.

ATC fails, airlines pay.
 
I'd say that WN pilot announcement was 100% factual.

ATC fails, airlines pay.

I wouldn't call it ATC's fault. Blame the contractors working on the roof who spilt something into the ventilation system and caused the whole building to fill with fumes.
 
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Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
I wouldn't call it ATC's fault. Blame the contractors working on the roof who spilt something into the ventilation system and caused the whole building to fill with fumes.
We're really getting our undies in a bunch about this? In the context of a brief, truthful announcement to the pax "the delay is due to an ATC problem" is totally acceptable.
 
We're really getting our undies in a bunch about this? In the context of a brief, truthful announcement to the pax "the delay is due to an ATC problem" is totally acceptable.

Panties not in a bunch. But "ATC problem" is not what was quoted as said. "ATC's fault" was. There is a rather large difference. Especially taken in context with the other thread about SWA.
 
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