Eff you SWA

mshunter said:
This is the ATC version of DenyNAI. We all need to support ATC and do what we can to stop this.
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Not really, no it's not.

In the US we have a lot of private competition for flying. This keeps prices in check and service to acceptable levels.

The US ATC system is a monopoly that has one provider. We really don't know what contracting it out will bring.

It's quite possible private industry will find ways to speed up the processes and reduce overhead. I'd bet ATC is chalk full of middle managers that do absolutely nothing. The front line employees aren't the target here, it's the overall bureaucracy in place that is the target.
 
wheelsup said:
Not really, no it's not.

In the US we have a lot of private competition for flying. This keeps prices in check and service to acceptable levels.

The US ATC system is a monopoly that has one provider. We really don't know what contracting it out will bring.

It's quite possible private industry will find ways to speed up the processes and reduce overhead. I'd bet ATC is chalk full of middle managers that do absolutely nothing. The front line employees aren't the target here, it's the overall bureaucracy in place that is the target.
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I don't think you understand what I mean then.

To add to it:

Good
Fast
Cheap.

Pick two.
 
Derg said:
I don't think privatization is the answer. It's basically handing over a no-bid contract to Lockheed Martin with a promise that they'll do a better job… which I have no faith in.

I prefer ATC to be run with ATC and the users of the system in mind and privatization is no guarantee of that.

Personally, I'm more than happy to pull up a chair and read what ATC'ers actually think. As a pilot, I'm fully aware that ATC is probably a more complex topic than I realize from the perspective of the 320.
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So much exactly this.

I started to make a post trying to highlight this, and then I just gave up. I'm running out of strength to argue with people who think everything complex is simple because they know just a little bit...and are too ignorant to realize how much they don't know.

-Fox
 
mshunter said:
I don't think you understand what I mean then.

To add to it:

Good
Fast
Cheap.

Pick two.
Click to expand...
That's a ridiculous statement.

My iPhone 5s is almost 3x as powerful as the 1985 Cray supercomputer yet it cost $500 vs ~$35 mil in todays dollars.

Good? Works well lasts long time.
Fast? Even Faster
Cheap? 0.0014% the cost.
 
wheelsup said:
That's a ridiculous statement.

My iPhone 5s is almost 3x as powerful as the 1985 Cray supercomputer yet it cost $500 vs ~$35 mil in todays dollars.

Good? Works well lasts long time.
Fast? Even Faster
Cheap? 0.0014% the cost.
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That's not what he meant. You got it good, and you got it cheap. But you did not get it fast. The increased processor performance speed is not the kind of "fast" he's talking about. It took 30 years to develop from the 80s Cray to the handheld 5s technology.

That's his point about "picking two out of three". You can get something good and cheap, but that takes much longer to develop. You can get something fast (developed quickly) and cheap, but it will not be good. Or you can get something good and fast (develop it quickly), but the development will not be cheap.
 
Beefy McGee said:
That's not what he meant. You got it good, and you got it cheap. But you did not get it fast. The increased processor performance speed is not the kind of "fast" he's talking about. It took 30 years to develop from the 80s Cray to the handheld 5s technology.

That's his point about "picking two out of three". You can get something good and cheap, but that takes much longer to develop. You can get something fast (developed quickly) and cheap, but it will not be good. Or you can get something good and fast (develop it quickly), but the development will not be cheap.
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No I get it.

It's a pretty common cliché.

But you are just ignoring common sense if you think government moves at the speed of industry.
 
Beefy McGee said:
That's not what he meant. You got it good, and you got it cheap. But you did not get it fast. The increased processor performance speed is not the kind of "fast" he's talking about. It took 30 years to develop from the 80s Cray to the handheld 5s technology.

That's his point about "picking two out of three". You can get something good and cheap, but that takes much longer to develop. You can get something fast (developed quickly) and cheap, but it will not be good. Or you can get something good and fast (develop it quickly), but the development will not be cheap.
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It's even worse that that. The article he quoted says that the system is now in place, that the government built from the ground up, and now it's going to be taken away from them, so someone else gets to come in and look like a hero.

This is complete bullcrap. Tax payers paid for it, and it's about to be handed over to a private company.
 
wheelsup said:
No I get it.

It's a pretty common cliché.
Click to expand...

A> You clearly didn't get it.
B> It's not a cliché, but an example of a pattern that emerges in all engineering endeavors.

But you are just ignoring common sense if you think government moves at the speed of industry.
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Hey, while we're at it, we should privatize our nuclear arsenal, and all the launch systems! Those systems are even older than ATC.

Hell, privatize the whole military! I mean, a corporation could obviously run it better, and think of how much money it would save taxpayers!

-Fox
 
RDoug said:
That article is two years old. All ARTCCs have been on ERAM for some time now. HOST is long dead.
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Darc is still alive and somewhat well.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Even for being over two years old it did a very good job of describing many aspects and challenges that are faced with new equipment.

One of the largest issues with eram, still dealing with it today, is the system it replaced was basically individualized for that facility. You had 20 artcc's and had to create a single piece of software that everyone could agree to and work with. That is a big issue in any situation, not just atc.

Then you have the scale of the operation, and the multitude of other parties that interact with it. On top of all that you throw in the wonderful federal procurement process and you have systems being fielded on 10+ year old proprietary hardware and software.

And just for icing on the cake put in temporary budget stops and funding cuts. I am really surprised much of anything happens.

This is one reason NATCA has their for core values and are working to meet them. They know what a functional atc system means and how much could be saved.
 
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wheelsup said:
No I get it.

It's a pretty common cliché.

But you are just ignoring common sense if you think government moves at the speed of industry.
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Industry is guided by profit making motives, if an idea is not profitable, it is not adopted. Government is not motivated by profit. In the case of ATC, the motivation is to provide public safety. The nature of our job is much closer to firefighting or law enforcement than it is to running an airline (let's say). Even people who don't fly benefit from ATC by not having planes fall out of the sky on top of them left and right. I don't hear any call for the privatization of police or firefighters, that is ridiculous and privatizing ATC in the US is just as ridiculous.

That begs the question: which came first, the chicken or the egg? Sure, ATC exists because people fly in airplanes and airlines are a big reason for that, but what would have happened in 1956 if the government just shrugged and told TWA and UAL they had better sort out this problem on their own? My guess is we would not have the robust airline industry we have today and a lot of you would also not be working in the industry. The pilot-controller relationship is symbiotic. I hate hearing customer service that and efficiency this coming from management. You let the airlines get their grubby hands on my job and watch that mentality increase ten fold. My duty is to facilitate the SAFE, orderly, and expeditious flow of aircraft within the national airspace system IN THAT ORDER.
 
Acrofox said:
A> You clearly didn't get it.
B> It's not a cliché, but an example of a pattern that emerges in all engineering endeavors.



Hey, while we're at it, we should privatize our nuclear arsenal, and all the launch systems! Those systems are even older than ATC.

Hell, privatize the whole military! I mean, a corporation could obviously run it better, and think of how much money it would save taxpayers!

-Fox
Click to expand...

The military is already privatized under a corporate scheme but to explain this would be beyond the scope of this forum.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Not too mention pretty damn inaccurate. Can't see planes outside your own airspace? What?
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Lol, when I was still at ZMP. We upgraded to ERAM. I could pull up data bloks for ZAUs traffic, from my piddily sector out of Western ND. That article is crud.
 
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