And it's not even summer yet (Passenger vs Pilot)

MikeD said:
I'm with you, in that I don't trust management any further than I could throw them either. At the same time though and in that vein, I'm not going to take a beating for them neither. If I defend myself, the chips will fall where they may...and hopefully on the right side of the issue assuming I used only necessary levels of force to stop the threat and that's all; but at least either way I'll still have my health. No crew member or employee for that matter, should be forced to have to worry about that, to where they won't defend themselves or second guess defending themselves, and end up injured or killed because of that. Thats so many shades of wrong for any management or corporation to do. And a company that demands that, is one people shouldn't bother working for. Companies like that make Mesa look like Delta.
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Well to each their own. I am by no means a pacifist but I dont mind getting hit if theres even the slightest inkling in my mind that this could be perceived negatively. Whether or not I was correct in fighting back the court of public opinion could rule against me and then my company will have little choice.
 
Cptnchia said:
Really? You guys are all excited because your pilot groups have apparently given up Captain's Authority to rampers and agents and find solace in attempted burns of the one group that apparently hasn't aquiesed. We truly are our own worst enemy.
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Did I say anything like this? Or are you assuming?


Derg said:
I do have to admit that his response was rather, well, odd.

If a passenger has to go, a passenger has to go and I'm happy and respectful that we can take care of it quickly.

Some gate agents will board a drunk and belligerent passenger is a HEARTBEAT in order to get them out of their hair. I really don't think I should be negotiating with that same gate agent whether or not the passenger is in a condition to fly on my jet.
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See above.
 
Derg said:
Some gate agents will board a drunk and belligerent passenger is a HEARTBEAT in order to get them out of their hair. I really don't think I should be negotiating with that same gate agent whether or not the passenger is in a condition to fly on my jet.
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We had similar situation.. guy wasn't belligerent but the long and short of it was he wouldn't be going to (destination) with us. After he's gone the gate agent says "yeah that guy's been trying to get there all day, that's like the 6th flight he's been kicked off of!" Jeez, thanks guys.
 
Seggy said:
Did I say anything like this? Or are you assuming?
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You didn't actually say anything. You just posted a really good meme, that I too have saved for a rainy day.

I did say something though and I really have no idea how either of those guys took my response to me that a flight crew has no say about how gets on the plane. Mike was wondering why the captain didn't insert himself in to the argument. I simply pointed out that it is not his job at the gate. He's got people for that. They deal with the passenger who is causing a problem there. He can make it really clear that the plane isn't going to go anywhere until he's satisfied with things, but it is not his job to physically or verbally deal with a passenger then.

If you've got an agent who boarded a passenger who is drunk I would sure as hell expect the captain (or the FO) to tell the agent to deboard them, and if there is any point of contention, all it takes is a radio call to get a supervisor. That's a given, and any airline who doesn't empower their crews to do that is in violation of several FARs. However, (and what I actually said) was that it's not the flight crew's job to go back there and drag the passenger off the airplane.
 
BobDDuck said:
I guess that's what an extra row of buttons on your blazer gets you.
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Cptnchia said:
Really? You guys are all excited because your pilot groups have apparently given up Captain's Authority to rampers and agents and find solace in attempted burns of the one group that apparently hasn't aquiesed. We truly are our own worst enemy.
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It was that way in my time as well. The moment you crossed through the door and set foot on the plane, she was yours/in your control. If that has now changed, what a loss and a stupid move. Snarking on a carrier where the further erosion of the Captain's authority has not been as prominent, makes no sense to me. But then many of the comments in this thread make no sense to me as well. lol Times have changed and apparently not always for the better.
 
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Stryker172 said:
Well to each their own. I am by no means a pacifist but I dont mind getting hit if theres even the slightest inkling in my mind that this could be perceived negatively. Whether or not I was correct in fighting back the court of public opinion could rule against me and then my company will have little choice.
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To each their own indeed. If perceptions are more important to you than physical safety in very specific instances like this, then there's not much I can say; other than I hope you're never faced with a situation like this, and if you are, that you aren't permanently disfigured or worse, all over worries of perception and some job that you just may lose anyway just from injuries incurred, at a company that you yourself claim doesn't have your back and couldn't care less about you.

In my business, these kinds of worries create hesitation to act at the wrong times in people, and get good guys killed, usually the same person. I'd just hate to see you fall into the same trap. Good luck.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think that the pilot in question may face some disciplinary action from his company. He "struck first" while attempting to block the passenger from taking a photo of his ID badge. It'd be a sucker move, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear it happen. Either way, it's good for the pilot that this was captured on surveillance video.

Personally, I would have taken the guy out as soon as he laid hands on me. When I was trained as a Corrections Officer, that was a big no-no and I still don't like people making sudden moves like that.
 
Cptnchia said:
Maybe at your shop, but not at mine.
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At your shop, the CA is inflight security coordinator even on the ground at the gate during boarding? There is no, say, other person who is considered the ground security coordinator? And at some point, say maybe during the final paperwork shuffle, some words are exchanged, in which the job is transferred from the GSC to the ISC which is the PIC?

Hypothetical of course. But does this hypothetical not sound like something you may have seen in use?

I think there's a sharp distinction between what people above were trying to say and what you said, so just trying to clarify.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
At your shop, the CA is inflight security coordinator even on the ground at the gate during boarding? There is no, say, other person who is considered the ground security coordinator? And at some point, say maybe during the final paperwork shuffle, some words are exchanged, in which the job is transferred from the GSC to the ISC which is the PIC?

Hypothetical of course. But does this hypothetical not sound like something you may have seen in use?

I think there's a sharp distinction between what people above were trying to say and what you said, so just trying to clarify.
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Let's put it this way. After the team is expanded, to include the GSC, OCC, CPO, Corp Security, and Legal, if the captain still feels it's necessary to remove the pax, regardless of what all the other departments say, the pax is gone. End of story. Can you say the same thing happens at your shop?
 
Cptnchia said:
Let's put it this way. After the team is expanded, to include the GSC, OCC, CPO, Corp Security, and Legal, if the captain still feels it's necessary to remove the pax, regardless of what all the other departments say, the pax is gone. End of story. Can you say the same thing happens at your shop?
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Yes. PIC authority still exists.

In practice though, I've seen it be where the GSC still asks the CA what he wants to do. Technically by the book, the GSC should be making that decision. From what I've seen, it's very frequently come down to the CA to make the final yea or nay.

Oh well. #Capn'Problems ;)
#WillFaceShortly
 
All of this makes me think there's a market need if I were to start a consulting firm that provided customer service and interaction training for pilots... since I speak customer service and I speak pilot... But I'm sure every airline I approached would tell me "Oh no, our pilots get it, they all provide excellent customer service, we have an internal training program!". I know my airline really doesn't provide this at all, though. What about other airlines? Do they actually devote any meaningful time to customer service, what kind of customer service training is provided at your airline?
 
Dphoenix said:
All of this makes me think there's a market need if I were to start a consulting firm that provided customer service and interaction training for pilots... since I speak customer service and I speak pilot... But I'm sure every airline I approached would tell me "Oh no, our pilots get it, they all provide excellent customer service, we have an internal training program!". I know my airline really doesn't provide this at all, though. What about other airlines? Do they actually devote any meaningful time to customer service, what kind of customer service training is provided at your airline?
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I know that SouthernJets International touches on it some at their In Command school.
 
MikeD said:
Gate agents do that, rather than just stop them at the gate? The ole pass the buck tactic......
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About ten years ago, it was pretty bad. Sometimes they'd even pre-warn the crew about it as they were boarding the passenger.
 
Derg said:
About ten years ago, it was pretty bad. Sometimes they'd even pre-warn the crew about it as they were boarding the passenger.
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Your FA's love me when I fly drunk (which is, honestly, the best way to fly). I don't stop smiling and I'm just the friendliest, nicest, most accomadating person they've ever met and then im passed out before we leave the gate til touchdown.
 
Derg said:
About ten years ago, it was pretty bad. Sometimes they'd even pre-warn the crew about it as they were boarding the passenger.
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I've had that happen several times. "Oh hey, we boarded a drunk passenger, but we'll take him off if you want..."

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Cptnchia said:
Let's put it this way. After the team is expanded, to include the GSC, OCC, CPO, Corp Security, and Legal, if the captain still feels it's necessary to remove the pax, regardless of what all the other departments say, the pax is gone. End of story. Can you say the same thing happens at your shop?
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That is exactly what @BobDDuck said.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Your FA's love me when I fly drunk (which is, honestly, the best way to fly). I don't stop smiling and I'm just the friendliest, nicest, most accomadating person they've ever met and then im passed out before we leave the gate til touchdown.
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Protip, don't let the d-word slip in front of an employee. I've witnessed two people (who were otherwise acting normal) say they were a little drunk and flexible with their seat assignments to a gate agent. They were removed from the flight

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Seggy said:
That is exactly what @BobDDuck said.
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No, he said:

BobDDuck said:
At the gate with the door open, it's really not his plane. Airlines made the decision a long time ago and it ain't going back to how it was any time soon.
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That's not even remotely what I said.

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