Medical Reform, Redux?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted member 27505
  • Start date Start date
That is not an accurate characteristic of the FAA medical certification branch.
I will disagree. I've had a "little peek" too. Notice, I limited my comment to medical issues they don't understand.

Sure, if the problem is common and has a clear solution, they're pretty good. I've seen a disqualifying condition requiring an SI where it was handled pretty well, even given the $1,000-$5,000 annual testing expense the treating physicians thought was completely unnecessary.

But I am also familiar with the opposite. The "Do these tests. Oh you passed? Now do these tests. Oh, you passed those? Sorry, too bad, so sad" when there is a lack of absolutely clear guidance on a condition as described in the King article happens. The acceptance of the most negative voice on the panel. Aviation articles abound warning pilots not to have certain tests done because of the risk of a false positive that can trigger certificate denial unless (and even if) thousands are spent by the pilot to exclude the problem. I've seen OK City documents stating, no matter what information is presented, "we will never grant him a medical certificate." I've seen pilots granted a third class medical with no special issuance who, next time around, were denied a medical after multiple passed special issuance tests, although there was no change in the pilot's condition.

I'm not saying I blame them. Denial of medical certification is low-hanging fruit - there is so much "agency expertise" and "discretionary function" tied into medical certification (read the Court of Appeals decidion upholding Hoover's denial) that FAA medical decisions are rarely overturned. And they have PR repercussions. Deny a John King or even a Bob Hoover a medical certificate without a solid reason and no one, except in the tiny aviation community gives a crap (in Hoover's case, the aviation community gave an especially huge crap and the FAA ultimately revisited the issue). OTOH, watch the public outcry if there's an 'FAA OKAYS FLIGHT AFTER PILOT SEIZURE" headline after a serious crash.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like an AME issue not a FAA issue.

The FAA Medical Branch does excellent work getting pilots back in the air.
Maybe at the airline level where you have bastions of your own attorneys and doctors.

My observations of student and colleague medical issues in the less exalted realms suggest a very different situation. I'm not even questioning the scientific quality of the FAAs medical work, just quality of the customer service and the efficiency of FAA Medical's work. The Docs with first hand knowledge with whom I've talked indicate FAA Medical has woefully outdated records systems, is understaffed, and has a large case backlog.

In short: Too many docs. Not enough Docs. And way too many tick, tick, tocks.

I know one student who identified his prostate cancer very early, was treated, and had over 10 years behind him with no recurrence or indications thereof. Ten years cured, he tried to get a medical. Took him 14 months and reams of unnecessary paperwork to make his case despite all his Docs (Stanford Med guys) saying he was fine. That sure doesn't seem like a well oiled machine.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That is not an accurate characteristic of the FAA medical certification branch.

Possibly, however firsthand experience with the SO Region Flight Surgeon(s) on a workplace accident that had me grounded from ATC for almost 2 years, I can say the ones I dealt with were very closed minded to things they didn't quite understand.

But not anywhere close to how bad the DOL OWCP people are.
 
I will disagree. I've had a "little peek" too. Notice, I limited my comment to medical issues they don't understand.

That is the thing, the FAA Aeromedical Branch does understand A LOT about aviation medicine. It is not like they have taken a politically connected general surgeon and said, 'Congrats! You are now the FAA Flight Surgeon (or regional Flight Surgeon)'. They have experts in pretty much all medical disciplines that can be turned to for information about a condition.

Sure, if the problem is common and has a clear solution, they're pretty good. I've seen a disqualifying condition requiring an SI where it was handled pretty well, even given the $1,000-$5,000 annual testing expense the treating physicians thought was completely unnecessary. But I am also familiar with the opposite. The "Do these tests. Oh you passed? Now do these tests. Oh, you passed those? Sorry, too bad, so sad" when there is a lack of absolutely clear guidance on a condition as described in the King article happens. The acceptance of the most negative voice on the panel. Aviation articles abound warning pilots not to have certain tests done because of the risk of a false positive that can trigger certificate denial unless (and even if) thousands are spent by the pilot to exclude the problem. I've seen OK City documents stating, no matter what information is presented, "we will never grant him a medical certificate." I've seen pilots granted a third class medical with no special issuance who, next time around, were denied a medical after multiple passed special issuance tests, although there was no change in the pilot's condition.

A few things here.

First, overall, the FAA Medical Certification Branch has actually made it easier to get a medical recently. Take a look at the changes to sleep apnea, those with depression and their ability to take SSRIs, and changing the period of a First Class Medical for those under 40. The FAA has also cleansed some of the AME ranks and you have less, but more experienced AMEs who know what they need to do to get their patients back in the air if an issue arises.

Secondly, I have come to the realization long ago that just because it is published in Flying Magazine it is not in the best interest of aviation safety. Look at this article a few months after the Colgan Accident about long time Flying Magazine advertiser Gulfstream Aviation Academy

http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/training/gulfstream-training-academy-provides-alternative

Gulfstream was getting a lot of bad press at the time as the last three fatal airline accidents by a United States airline were graduates from the program. So Gulfstream had Flying Magazine do a fluff article about them. Did that happen with the Kings, long time Flying Magazine advertisers? Who knows what is really going on with John Kings Medical. Point is, just because I read it in Flying Magazine doesn't make it gospel.

Thirdly, it is the extremely rare exception, not the norm, that additional tests are required by the treating physician to be acceptable for the issuance. 99.99999% of the time the treatment plan as long as it is in reason and result is what the FAA is looking for. With that, it is also extremely rare that the FAA comes back and asks for more information on medical conditions as long as the paperwork is in order. It is more common with substance abuse cases, sure, but for other medical issues it is rare.

Fourthly, the articles that tell folks to not get certain tests because it may show something that the FAA wouldn't like isn't good advice.


I'm not saying I blame them. Denial of medical certification is low-hanging fruit - there is so much "agency expertise" and "discretionary function" tied into medical certification (read the Court of Appeals decidion upholding Hoover's denial) that FAA medical decisions are rarely overturned. And they have PR repercussions. Deny a John King or even a Bob Hoover a medical certificate without a solid reason and no one, except in the tiny aviation community gives a crap (in Hoover's case, the aviation community gave an especially huge crap and the FAA ultimately revisited the issue). OTOH, watch the public outcry if there's an 'FAA OKAYS FLIGHT AFTER PILOT SEIZURE" headline after a serious crash.

I have had the last two FAA Flight Surgeons, tell me to my face and then to a big group that they completely understand that they will never be able to catch every medical condition for every pilot that could cause an issue. They completely get that. The FAA Aeromedical Branch is also NOT one to get emotional with PR and make rash decisions. Look how the aftermath of the Eurowings Murder Suicide was handled and the resulting ARC and the recommendations from that ARC. They have some very level heads.

Once again, I can't emphasize this enough. The FAA Aeromedical Branch wants us all to have a medical to allow us to fly. Their goal isn't to ground people.
 
Maybe at the airline level where you have bastions of your own attorneys and doctors.

Actually the services I have are available to anyone...

For noncontracted members...

https://www.aviationmedicine.com/consult-an-amas-physician/individual-confidential-questionnaire/

My observations of student and colleague medical issues in the less exalted realms suggest a very different situation. I'm not even questioning the scientific quality of the FAAs medical work, just quality of the customer service and the efficiency of FAA Medical's work. The Docs with first hand knowledge with whom I've talked indicate FAA Medical has woefully outdated records systems, is understaffed, and has a large case backlog.

This is categorically not true.

A few years ago the FAA changed the medical standards for those that had sleep apnea. What caused the change? The FAA saw through their records, that with the overall number of folks that were of a certain BMI based on height and weight in the FAA system, sleep apnea was being WAAAAAY under reported. They then looked at why that may be and made the necessary changes.

The FAA used their date to make it easier to get a medical with a common and deadly condition.

In short: Too many docs. Not enough Docs. And way too many tick, tick, tocks.

The FAA has had issues with AMEs that only did a handful of medicals a month. Basically 95% of the (paperwork) problems are caused by 5% of the doctors. So they cleansed some of these rarely used AMEs to make it better for those that actually knew what they were doing.

I know one student who identified his prostate cancer very early, was treated, and had over 10 years behind him with no recurrence or indications thereof. Ten years cured, he tried to get a medical. Took him 14 months and reams of unnecessary paperwork to make his case despite all his Docs (Stanford Med guys) saying he was fine. That sure doesn't seem like a well oiled machine.

How long ago did this guy have issues with the paperwork? Were there more issues than just this? Like did he not report it on a previous medical?
 
Last edited:
Possibly, however firsthand experience with the SO Region Flight Surgeon(s) on a workplace accident that had me grounded from ATC for almost 2 years, I can say the ones I dealt with were very closed minded to things they didn't quite understand.

But not anywhere close to how bad the DOL OWCP people are.

How long ago was this?
 
I guess @Seggy and I have seen very different things and accordingly have different perspectives. He sees an open system where I see the usual biases that exist most everywhere.
 
Last edited:
How long ago was this?

Early 2000's, however I still hear horror stories from friends still in the trenches at A80. Take 1 shot of Nyquil, down for 60 hours. Get hammered, see you in 8.

I'm outta the game now, but they, and the DOL, put me through a living hell.

Last thought. I was in a pretty dire situation with a neurological issue after the workplace accident that another employee caused and had to take a certain medicine to stop the spread of the issue. Took the medicine and it pretty much did what it was supposed to do, but the FS told me I had lost my medical permanently for taking it.

A few years later, with my marriage destroyed, having to sell practically every worldly possession to live as I fought with the FAA for disability pay for something THEY did to me (and acknowledged that they did), after thoughts of ending it all and a series of demeaning made up jobs nowhere near my qualifications I sat in my Chief's office on the phone with the FS.

I had quit my 20+ pill a day regiment and, thank whoever, the issue had subsided and I was trying to get my medical back because our staffing issues were so awful and I wanted to get back to what I was trained for and loved.

Chief: "the concern is your told CJ that if he ever took this medicine he would NEVER get his medical back."

FS: "yeah, we tell all the controllers that."

They, the DOL and the FAA put me through a living hell and destroyed 2+ years of my life.....all for something that I had no control over. It was because of another employees negligence and then lied to me about never being able to get my medical back.

My feeling has always been, if they are such great doctors why in the hell are they sitting in some asbestos filled govt. building, making GS wages, instead of being out in private practice making a much better living.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My observations of student and colleague medical issues in the less exalted realms suggest a very different situation. I'm not even questioning the scientific quality of the FAAs medical work, just quality of the customer service and the efficiency of FAA Medical's work. The Docs with first hand knowledge with whom I've talked indicate FAA Medical has woefully outdated records systems, is understaffed, and has a large case backlog.

This is categorically not true.

Seggy, with all due respect, your statement above is the perfect example of why you are so often unable to get your points across to people, points that are often good ones.

Do you really fail to see how absurd that statement is?

You are telling me that my observations are categorically untrue. They are my observations. If they were not my observations, I wouldn't have stated they were, and I wouldn't have shared them, hmmmm? Further, I didn't even make any hard claims, I suggested a situation based on my observations -you know, stuff I've actually seen.

You could say that you have other observations that contradict mine. (you talked about sleep apnea, but that's hardly germane)

You could state changes in FAA paperwork processing or technology that you have observed.

You could even say, "Well, I'm sorry to hear about your student's woes. My recent observations suggest that the FAA is working hard to correct those issues" (you touched on the issue of 'bad apple' docs, so good for you on that, but that doesn't really make an argument to support general process reform).

What you can't do is say to me that my observations are untrue, especially not in a categorical fashion.

I don't know you. I do know -based on many of your posts- that you have a lot of good information and some good ideas to share. It's sad, for me at least, that you seem so defensive and, therefore, do such a poor job of trying to connect with your audience (an engaged one in my case). Lighten up; you'll be far more effective.
 
I guess @Seggy and I have seen very different things and accordingly have different perspectives. He sees an open system where I see the usual biases that exist most everywhere.

One of the great advantages of being a member of a union like ALPA is they have people dedicated to taking care of medical problems. They have a lot of knowledge of both the medical issues, and the administrative process to get SI medicals through the system. If they run into roadblocks, then they have a lot of legal weight to throw at the problem.

Individual pilots with medical issues have none of these advantages, so they naturally have less favorable outcomes.

Both perspectives are true and do not actually contradict each other. The problem arises when Seggy assumes that his experience with the feds is exactly the same treatment that Joe Pilot received, it's not.
 
99.99999% of the time
You sure about that number? I want to see the math. Heck, even Ivory soap was only 99.44% pure.
I do know that 73.48% of all statistics and 93.2% of statistics found on the internet are made up on the spot... everyone knows that... it's a fact! ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Early 2000's, however I still hear horror stories from friends still in the trenches at A80. Take 1 shot of Nyquil, down for 60 hours. Get hammered, see you in 8.

Well....not really if you are under the influence.

Also, it is usually not the medicine that causes the restriction, but what you are taking it for. As noted in the other thread if you have a head cold, need to take Nyquil to get to sleep, you probably shouldn't fly or be behind the scope for a couple of days.

I'm outta the game now, but they, and the DOL, put me through a living hell.

Last thought. I was in a pretty dire situation with a neurological issue after the workplace accident that another employee caused and had to take a certain medicine to stop the spread of the issue. Took the medicine and it pretty much did what it was supposed to do, but the FS told me I had lost my medical permanently for taking it.

A few years later, with my marriage destroyed, having to sell practically every worldly possession to live as I fought with the FAA for disability pay for something THEY did to me (and acknowledged that they did), after thoughts of ending it all and a series of demeaning made up jobs nowhere near my qualifications I sat in my Chief's office on the phone with the FS.

I had quit my 20+ pill a day regiment and, thank whoever, the issue had subsided and I was trying to get my medical back because our staffing issues were so awful and I wanted to get back to what I was trained for and loved.

Chief: "the concern is your told CJ that if he ever took this medicine he would NEVER get his medical back."

FS: "yeah, we tell all the controllers that."

They, the DOL and the FAA put me through a living hell and destroyed 2+ years of my life.....all for something that I had no control over. It was because of another employees negligence and then lied to me about never being able to get my medical back.

This happened before my time so can't comment about what you went through and how it would be different today.

My feeling has always been, if they are such great doctors why in the hell are they sitting in some asbestos filled govt. building, making GS wages, instead of being out in private practice making a much better living.

A lot of the doctors in the FAA Aeromedical Branch are retired military.
 
Seggy, with all due respect, your statement above is the perfect example of why you are so often unable to get your points across to people, points that are often good ones.

Do you really fail to see how absurd that statement is?

You are telling me that my observations are categorically untrue. They are my observations. If they were not my observations, I wouldn't have stated they were, and I wouldn't have shared them, hmmmm? Further, I didn't even make any hard claims, I suggested a situation based on my observations -you know, stuff I've actually seen.

I told you specifically how the database of information was used to change a medical standard. If the record system was woefully out of date that wouldn't have happened.

You could say that you have other observations that contradict mine. (you talked about sleep apnea, but that's hardly germane)

I have facts. Not observations.

You could state changes in FAA paperwork processing or technology that you have observed.

You could even say, "Well, I'm sorry to hear about your student's woes. My recent observations suggest that the FAA is working hard to correct those issues" (you touched on the issue of 'bad apple' docs, so good for you on that, but that doesn't really make an argument to support general process reform).

What you can't do is say to me that my observations are untrue, especially not in a categorical fashion.

I don't know you. I do know -based on many of your posts- that you have a lot of good information and some good ideas to share. It's sad, for me at least, that you seem so defensive and, therefore, do such a poor job of trying to connect with your audience (an engaged one in my case). Lighten up; you'll be far more effective.

Did you even read what I wrote? Notice my last sentence?
 
One of the great advantages of being a member of a union like ALPA is they have people dedicated to taking care of medical problems. They have a lot of knowledge of both the medical issues, and the administrative process to get SI medicals through the system. If they run into roadblocks, then they have a lot of legal weight to throw at the problem.

Individual pilots with medical issues have none of these advantages, so they naturally have less favorable outcomes.

Technically, ALPA does not have folks dedicated to taking care of medical problems. They contract out to AMAS, which as stated previously in this thread, anyone can use.

ALPA does have volunteers and lawyers that work on these issues, among other responsibilities, but they will say call AMAS first.
 
Back
Top