Ok, I'll eat the crow I deserve, or how I learned to love the Bus.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That's exactly why I used the words "large" input. I would consider 3/4 large and not small but when the spoilers deploy wasn't the subject of discussion here. The bottom line is that you said it's just an airplane and you fly it just like any other jet that doesn't have spoilers that deploy with aileron. Sure you can get away with what you're doing 99% of the time but go try a large aileron input on a flaps 3, short runway takeoff with a V1 cut and let me know how that works out for you.

I don't know how much performance is lost but I'll trust the airbus manual over what others say.

I'm afraid you didn't read my post.... at all. 3/4 of the cross on the PFD, not 3/4 deflection is what is appropriate. You get appropriate aileron deflection into the crosswind, and you'll never get a spoiler to begin to deflect at 3/4 of the cross. Like I said, try it when you're taxiing out to see when they start coming up. It's right about the edge of the cross in deflection.

I've spent the last 5 years on the bus (last 2 teaching), 5 years prior to that on Boeings (with 2 years teaching there as well), and also 3 years on the CRJ before that. Every one of the jets I've flown will have spoilers come up after a certain amount of control deflection. It's up to the training dept to show you how much deflection is appropriate.

Like I said, it's a real airplane, just you're doing stuff a bit different with the stick to make the look correct.

Does Delta allow spoiler usage with flaps 3?

The 319 and 320 you can use it with flaps 3 (even for a flaps 3 landing), but the 321 has automatic retract of the speedbrake when flaps 3 is selected just like going to full on the 319 and 20.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The 319 and 320 you can use it with flaps 3 (even for a flaps 3 landing), but the 321 has automatic retract of the speedbrake when flaps 3 is selected just like going to full on the 319 and 20.

Oh ok, makes sense. We are getting our 321 differences training on the next recurrent sim/ground.

 

[Roger Roger]

I might be wrong but don't pretty much all transport category jets these days use roll spoilers to some degree?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I've flown the CRJ-200, MD-88, 757, 767, 737, and A320 series and now the A330 coming in a few months... every last one of them use roll spoilers.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I've flown the CRJ-200, MD-88, 757, 767, 737, and A320 series and now the A330 coming in a few months... every last one of them use roll spoilers.

Leaving the schoolhouse for the big Bus? Or big Bus sim?

 

[Lunchbox]

I've flown the CRJ-200, MD-88, 757, 767, 737, and A320 series and now the A330 coming in a few months... every last one of them use roll spoilers.

I might be wrong but don't pretty much all transport category jets these days use roll spoilers to some degree?

Right but we're talking about on the ground, my mistake if I left out that part. The two different jet types I've flown not counting the 320 had logic to inhibit roll spoilers for takeoff. I'm just telling you what my company manual recommends as well as Airbus and the old US Airways (not sure about AA).

 

[derg]

Does Delta allow spoiler usage with flaps 3?

Never much thought about it. Pourquoi pas?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Never much thought about it. Pourquoi pas?

Had to do it once in SAN for 27. Visual, but some Cessna around 3.5k (I think?) who ATC called. Neither of us saw the traffic so we decided of course not to call it (plus my usual rule of not calling any GA aircraft going into SAN, but that's another story time). They held us high until clear of traffic, and now it was dive down. Gear was already down, flaps already 3, and speed back, so used thrust idle, AP off, full spoilers, and 'sped' (dived) up to 170kts until capturing the visual glidepath for the landing on 27. Flaps went to full at 1300' and checklist completed and stable at exactly 1000 AGL.

Fifi doesn't like to slow down and go down, but I sorta disagree with the:

Meh.

I chuckle when AB pilots turn A/P off to try and make a descent.

"If Otto can't do it, you probably can't either."

Manually getting the AT off by bringing it to idle brings the engines to idle quicker than pulling open descent, and being able to use full spoilers versus half with AP on, I think manually turning the AT and AP off you can get Fifi down quicker/sooner than with George on.

 

[derg]

Well, we've had some issues with pilots flying "through" the flight director with the autothrottles on and causing all sorts of hilarity.

 

[Cptnchia]

So cute watching the airbii pilots bicker.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Right but we're talking about on the ground, my mistake if I left out that part. The two different jet types I've flown not counting the 320 had logic to inhibit roll spoilers for takeoff. I'm just telling you what my company manual recommends as well as Airbus and the old US Airways (not sure about AA).

I'm talking about on the ground during the takeoff roll. The cross goes away when you transition to flight mode... what else would I be talking about?? Dear Lord, I've said 3/4 of the cross like 4 times already.... what'd you think I was referring to??

You guys are the only carrier to have that rule in the states as far as I know. Must get pretty sporty rolling down the runway when you're above 30 knots of crosswind!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

And yep about slapping the thrust levers back to idle.... much mo quicker than watching pierre lazily unspooling in an OP DES!

You can go down and then you can slow down, or you can go down to slow down... but you can't do both! (just like the 757!)

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So cute watching the airbii pilots bicker.

 

[derg]

So cute watching the airbii pilots bicker.

Come on up to 390 and we'll talk about it.

Wait…

Oh yeah.

 

[CFIscare]

I'm talking about on the ground during the takeoff roll. The cross goes away when you transition to flight mode... what else would I be talking about?? Dear Lord, I've said 3/4 of the cross like 4 times already.... what'd you think I was referring to??

You guys are the only carrier to have that rule in the states as far as I know. Must get pretty sporty rolling down the runway when you're above 30 knots of crosswind!

Spirit also had that rule, which I believe comes from Airbus.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well, we've had some issues with pilots flying "through" the flight director with the autothrottles on and causing all sorts of hilarity.

You guys aren't alone on that one.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Spirit also had that rule, which I believe comes from Airbus.

Ok, so that's two carriers. Follow the rules of your company, but still... it's a dang airplane and the not popping the spoilers things with the aileron into the wind is something you have to think about on Boeings as well.

Having a board deflect ever so slightly isn't going to negate your performance... we fly to some seriously crazy places at widget land on fifi as well. Having the aileron appropriately placed sure helps on V1 cuts contrary to a point made earlier (and I've easily seen 1000+ of them at this point)

 

[CFIscare]

Ok, so that's two carriers. Follow the rules of your company, but still... it's a dang airplane and the not popping the spoilers things with the aileron into the wind is something you have to think about on Boeings as well.

Having a board deflect ever so slightly isn't going to negate your performance... we fly to some seriously crazy places at widget land on fifi as well. Having the aileron appropriately placed sure helps on V1 cuts contrary to a point made earlier (and I've easily seen 1000+ of them at this point)

I don't disagree. It really doesn't take much side stick deflection to keep the wings level, so one shouldn't even have to worry about board deflection, but like you said, follow the rules of your company.

 

[Lunchbox]

I'm talking about on the ground during the takeoff roll. The cross goes away when you transition to flight mode... what else would I be talking about?? Dear Lord, I've said 3/4 of the cross like 4 times already.... what'd you think I was referring to??

You guys are the only carrier to have that rule in the states as far as I know. Must get pretty sporty rolling down the runway when you're above 30 knots of crosswind!

Wow, now you're taking my post out of context. Just go back and look at the post I quoted of yours. I was talking about your list of aircraft with roll spoilers not your 3/4 post. The way the actual manual reads is a recommendation to not use any aileron inputs at all with a firm, do not use more than what's needed to keep the wings level. It doesn't take much to keep the wings level during a strong crosswind but this is different from the way I flew previous jets (used more aileron) and I would assume most other people as well. Our max crosswind limitation is 29 knots so I wouldn't know but it's just an awkward plane at times. I had to change my crosswind landing technique to please the bus and stop making corrections on a gusty hand flown approach since it's computerized. My opinion of the plane is it converts a good and a bad pilot to average which is what the French wanted.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Wow, now you're taking my post out of context. Just go back and look at the post I quoted of yours. I was talking about your list of aircraft with roll spoilers not your 3/4 post. The way the actual manual reads is a recommendation to not use any aileron inputs at all with a firm, do not use more than what's needed to keep the wings level. It doesn't take much to keep the wings level during a strong crosswind but this is different from the way I flew previous jets (used more aileron) and I would assume most other people as well. Our max crosswind limitation is 29 knots so I wouldn't know but it's just an awkward plane at times. I had to change my crosswind landing technique to please the bus and stop making corrections on a gusty hand flown approach since it's computerized. My opinion of the plane is it converts a good and a bad pilot to average which is what the French wanted.

Read my original response with the 3/4 of the cross. That is where you went off the rails. Our max crosswind is the Airbus limitation of 38 knots.... you have to get maximum aileron input in before popping the spoilers in order to make that happen. That is applying 3/4 of the cross (actually just a tad more than that before they start to float up) at the beginning of the takeoff roll. If you don't do that, the wing will lift and stuff gets pretty spectacular from there. Interestingly enough, the Airbus company sims in MIA will have you crash if you don't put in the aileron. The wing lifts and it flops out of control on their own sims at the aircraft limitation of 38 knots.

You changed your crosswind landing technique with control inputs but not with the way the plane looks and lands. You just have to adapt your inputs to make it happen. That is being a good pilot.

Completely and absolutely disagreed with the converting a good and bad pilot to average. You will degrade to an average and worse pilot only if you resign to that mindset. Your goal should be an absolute mastery of stick and rudder skills and flight guidance management at all levels on every plane you fly. Fifi is a stick and rudder plane when it really comes down to it, and man is she fun to fly in all regimes. It's a battle for a favorite for me between her and the 757.