Flydubai Flight 981

Der rote Baron said:
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...n-dangerous-fatigue-leaked-documents-flydubai

Interesting read. I wonder if this is also the case at the "big sister" EK.
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Can't really speak for the maintenance side, but there were rarely ever any MEL items. The engineers were worked pretty hard though and the company had a hard time attracting new engineers to join so they were always under-manned.

On the pilot side of EK, the standards are pretty high. The term we used when deciding on terminating an under-performing pilot was, "they are a risk to the business". Upgrade to captain is far more difficult than at U.S. carriers. Quite honestly, when riding as a passenger, I would choose EK over pretty much every other airline in the world from a pilot competence standpoint.


Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
Can't really speak for the maintenance side, but there were rarely ever any MEL items. The engineers were worked pretty hard though and the company had a hard time attracting new engineers to join so they were always under-manned.

On the pilot side of EK, the standards are pretty high. The term we used when deciding on terminating an under-performing pilot was, "they are a risk to the business". Upgrade to captain is far more difficult than at U.S. carriers. Quite honestly, when riding as a passenger, I would choose EK over pretty much every other airline in the world from a pilot competence standpoint.


Typhoonpilot
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What a shame that they're driving around exhausted all the time.
 
typhoonpilot said:
Can't really speak for the maintenance side, but there were rarely ever any MEL items. The engineers were worked pretty hard though and the company had a hard time attracting new engineers to join so they were always under-manned.

On the pilot side of EK, the standards are pretty high. The term we used when deciding on terminating an under-performing pilot was, "they are a risk to the business". Upgrade to captain is far more difficult than at U.S. carriers. Quite honestly, when riding as a passenger, I would choose EK over pretty much every other airline in the world from a pilot competence standpoint.


Typhoonpilot
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Pilot competence (which I don't believe what you said) doesn't mean pilot fitness.
 
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Skåning said:
I've heard some first hand stories about the local pilots competence at EK. They're not held to the same standards as the expats
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As an examiner I can categorically say that is not true. More than a few cadet pilots failed training and were let go. They are not coddled. Would be interested to hear the first hand stories. For their experience level they are generally pretty sharp.


TP
 
Snuggle said:
How to lose credibility real quick!
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How exactly? We had this debate before. Emirates holds pilots to a far higher standard than U.S. carriers.

Having worked for:

U.S. Regional
U.S. Major
U.S. Supplemental
numerous foreign carriers
and two major aircraft manufacturers, I can easily validate my observations.

More than a few U.S. major airline pilots came to Emirates and either failed initial training or later failed to upgrade. The biggest percentage of those being from Delta/NWA. USAirways pilots did very well. United pilots did pretty well. AA pilots did okay. ATA pilots did okay. The regionals pilots were a mixed bag but some were really good and some not so good.

It may not be what you want to hear, but it is derived from over 30 years of professional flying and a unique exposure to nearly 100 different pilot groups from all over the world.

I will throw a bone to Seggy though because fatigue can erode the level of safety.


Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
As an examiner I can categorically say that is not true. More than a few cadet pilots failed training and were let go. They are not coddled. Would be interested to hear the first hand stories. For their experience level they are generally pretty sharp.


TP
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So were they sharp, pretty sharp, or only pretty sharp when you considered their experience level?
 
typhoonpilot said:
More than a few U.S. major airline pilots came to Emirates and either failed initial training or later failed to upgrade. The biggest percentage of those being from Delta/NWA. USAirways pilots did very well. United pilots did pretty well. AA pilots did okay. ATA pilots did okay. The regionals pilots were a mixed bag but some were really good and some not so good.


I will throw a bone to Seggy though because fatigue can erode the level of safety.


Typhoonpilot
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Sounds more like a issue with the training department at Emirates to me.

Throwing @Seggy a bone?

So it's okay to downplay the issues of fatigue at Emirates? Sorry, but nobody cares about your resume or whatever your observations were when you ignore such a big safety threat.
 
Snuggle said:
Sounds more like a issue with the training department at Emirates to me.

Throwing @Seggy a bone?

So it's okay to downplay the issues of fatigue at Emirates? Sorry, but nobody cares about your resume or whatever your observations were when you ignore such a big safety threat.
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From what I hear the training department is one of the better parts of Emirates. I believe TP's points in regards to this topic at face value, he has the first hand experience to back up his statements.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
From what I hear the training department is one of the better parts of Emirates. I believe TP's points in regards to this topic at face value, he has the first hand experience to back up his statements.
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No one is saying Emirates has a bad or subpar training department. The fatigue risk management though has been well documented as lacking. Those are two separate issues.
 
amorris311 said:
No one is saying Emirates has a bad or subpar training department. The fatigue risk management though has been well documented as lacking. Those are two separate issues.
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Probably due to their late night Sub Continent turns. I don't see how UPS and Fedex are any less fatiguing. One glance of UPS 1354's CVR transcript, and they say dead men don't tell tales but these two definitely did - unfortunately it fell (and falls) on deaf ears.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Probably due to their late night Sub Continent turns. I don't see how UPS and Fedex are any less fatiguing. One glance of UPS 1354's CVR transcript, and they say dead men don't tell tales but these two definitely did - unfortunately it fell (and falls) on deaf ears.
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Subcontinent turns are one thing. ULH flights are a whole other beast.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
My understanding is that they get min 3 days off before and after a ULH. Is that still not the case?
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I have no idea the rest rules the company honors. It is well documented that pilots feel fatigue is a major issue that seems to get little attention. I'm sure you've flown with pilots who have experienced it first hand. I know I have and most of them has pleasant memories but there is typically one constant, fatigue!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
My understanding is that they get min 3 days off before and after a ULH. Is that still not the case?
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As far as I know that's not the case. EK is stretching the rosters to the poosible legal max. The worst rosters are als far aus I know on the Tractor, 100 block hours and more are pretty much standard.
 
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