Envoy DFW-TYR

One of my favorite memories of Tyler, driving this thread off topic, is when a captain was flying and was cleared for a visual approach. He called the airport in sight which later turned out to be the wrong airport. I asked him, "do you have the airport in sight?" - "Yea, of course..."

I looked out the window and pointed to the much closer and actual Tyler airport..."That one?"

"Oh #*$&...."

"You want a 360?"

"Yea, we better."

I asked for and was cleared to do a 360 on final. After which this captain performed the most epic and perfectly executed...steep turn. He made a 360 degree turn at about 45 degrees of bank without losing a single inch of altitude. We arrived back on the final approach course exactly where we began, too high and too close.

"That was an excellent steep turn sir, I'm just going to ask for an additional steep turn."

"...Ok."
 
z987k said:
True... but it just strikes me as your company treating you like children unable to do your job instead of as professional aviators.

Opspec number by chance? C0??
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Um. Again, it's the FAA, not the company driving this policy.

I do not know the policy number, nor do I care.
 
z987k said:
Nice. Never read the ops specs. Good luck with staying legal.
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What's the axe you're grinding here? We aren't provided a copy of the full ops specs. They give us a manual that contains references to ops specs and CFRs.

Are you suggesting, that because I haven't memorized the ops specs reference, I'm incapable of obeying a regulation that I've recited to you? Seriously?
 
bLizZuE said:
One of my favorite memories of Tyler, driving this thread off topic, is when a captain was flying and was cleared for a visual approach. He called the airport in sight which later turned out to be the wrong airport. I asked him, "do you have the airport in sight?" - "Yea, of course..."

I looked out the window and pointed to the much closer and actual Tyler airport..."That one?"

"Oh #*$&...."

"You want a 360?"

"Yea, we better."

I asked for and was cleared to do a 360 on final. After which this captain performed the most epic and perfectly executed...steep turn. He made a 360 degree turn at about 45 degrees of bank without losing a single inch of altitude. We arrived back on the final approach course exactly where we began, too high and too close.

"That was an excellent steep turn sir, I'm just going to ask for an additional steep turn."

"...Ok."
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What hotel do y'all stay at there? I miss those layovers.

And steep turns are perfectly fine as long as you dont have foqua or whatever that stuff is called. I miss the saab!
 
z987k said:
You are the only carrier, even 121, that I have ever heard of that has this.
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For most 121 ops specs you need wx when landing (even CAVOK). Where it gets interesting is that it can be an automated system, but MUST have at least 1 ground person verifying the report. So if there is no wx observer and the AWOS gives a beautiful report, you still can't land. If there is one ground person who is an authorized weather observer you can land even with things "missing". Yea, kinda jacked up, but it depends on the ops spec. It's especially true if there isn't a TAF for the actual airport (meaning only an area report and basic AWOS).

It gets very screwy and many details are missing from the above statement, but you need wx for 121 and it must be verified prior to an approach, even when the wx is "weekend warrior VFR". Of course, each operator has different ops specs and applicable exemptions, based on available resources. (Beat that disclaimer)...
 
z987k said:
True... but it just strikes me as your company treating you like children unable to do your job instead of as professional aviators.
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I'm confident that you're aware that we all have different procedures and requirements when it comes to non-towered operations?

The people that pay @bLizZuE on the "foist and fifteemth" say "jump", his reply is "how high" and the money comes.

Pretty simple! :)

If they didn't have the required criteria to land, as prescribed by the company, it's not an internal matter. The FAA would get in that ass as well.
 
bLizZuE said:
What's the axe you're grinding here? We aren't provided a copy of the full ops specs. They give us a manual that contains references to ops specs and CFRs.

Are you suggesting, that because I haven't memorized the ops specs reference, I'm incapable of obeying a regulation that I've recited to you? Seriously?
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I highly doubt you don't have access to the ops specs. And if you haven't read them, then you don't actually know what is in them. I'm aware the GOM and SOP are written to keep you in compliance of them.
 
z987k said:
I highly doubt you don't have access to the ops specs. And if you haven't read them, then you don't actually know what is in them. I'm aware the GOM and SOP are written to keep you in compliance of them.
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I don't have a GOM or an SOP manual.
 
higney85 said:
For most 121 ops specs you need wx when landing (even CAVOK). Where it gets interesting is that it can be an automated system, but MUST have at least 1 ground person verifying the report. So if there is no wx observer and the AWOS gives a beautiful report, you still can't land. If there is one ground person who is an authorized weather observer you can land even with things "missing". Yea, kinda jacked up, but it depends on the ops spec. It's especially true if there isn't a TAF for the actual airport (meaning only an area report and basic AWOS).

It gets very screwy and many details are missing from the above statement, but you need wx for 121 and it must be verified prior to an approach, even when the wx is "weekend warrior VFR". Of course, each operator has different ops specs and applicable exemptions, based on available resources. (Beat that disclaimer)...
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Ya, this is all new to me. I have flown for 3 135s and 2 121s and have never seen such a requirement. Which is why it seems a bit absurd, but I'd also love to read your opspecs that lay this out, because I have not seen it, and most of the time they're fairly cookie cutter. C055 at a 135 multi piston shop and a 121 domestic jet shop are going to be the exact same thing.
I'd like to do me some learning and some guy on a forum said or this captain said is not really good enough.
 
z987k said:
You can use whatever three letter acronym for the incredibly large document(s) you would like.
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Actually, it's not as universal across carriers as you'd believe.

Please clarify for me, you have a problem with Envoy doing a turnback because they didn't meet the basic requirements to land at an uncontrolled field?

I've never flown for Envoy, nor seen any of it's books, but judging from what I had at Skyway to what I have at SouthernJets, I'm sure I'd feel like a dog watching Neil DeGrasse Tyson speak about astrophysics.
 
Derg said:
Actually, it's not as universal across carriers as you'd believe.

Please clarify for me, you have a problem with Envoy doing a turnback because they didn't meet the basic requirements to land at an uncontrolled field?

I've never flown for Envoy, nor seen any of it's books, but judging from what I had at Skyway to what I have at SouthernJets, I'm sure I'd feel like a dog watching Neil DeGrasse Tyson speak about astrophysics.
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If that's their requirements then they have to follow them. Obviously. I do think that either the FAA or their company has no faith in their pilots to do the most basic part of their job, but that doesn't matter much - what I think.
But you're telling me at southern jets you don't have some kind of document that more or less lays out how you're going to operate your airplane, say in a standard way so that the other pilot's not in the dark about what you are doing? And you don't have documents detailing almost all the minutia of de-icing and such?
I mean, call them what you want, but those are pretty universally required docs by the FAA. They're usually "accepted" rather than "approved".
Everyone has a list of approved opspecs, whether that is something they freely hand out is another thing, but you certainly have them.
 
z987k said:
If that's their requirements then they have to follow them. Obviously. I do think that either the FAA or their company has no faith in their pilots to do the most basic part of their job, but that doesn't matter much - what I think.
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That's the key. You have an opinion on how they should operate their airplane. Which is fine, but lets not belabor the issue by saying what we would have done in lieu of the rules because we aren't the ones that will be at the "big brown desk" explaining to the FAA and the chief pilot why we willfully disregarded the procedure in a non-emergency situation.

But you're telling me at southern jets you don't have some kind of document that more or less lays out how you're going to operate your airplane, say in a standard way so that the other pilot's not in the dark about what you are doing? And you don't have documents detailing almost all the minutia of de-icing and such?
I mean, call them what you want, but those are pretty universally required docs by the FAA. They're usually "accepted" rather than "approved".
Everyone has a list of approved opspecs, whether that is something they freely hand out is another thing, but you certainly have them.
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That's not what you alluded to.

Of course we have procedures and standards, but they're delineated in a way that differs from your airline. And in different places. We're much more "NATOPS" (the right tool for the right job in the right scenario) than we are the NWA "SOPA/SMAC" that morphed into your "SOP"/"GOM" that the guys that set up your program were (because a lot of them are retired NWA).

I know a little bit about your shop! :) I'll buy you a beer one day and we'll chat, but I might be completely out to lunch on the issue.

Which is fine. I'll sleep. :)
 
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z987k said:
Nice. Never read the ops specs. Good luck with staying legal.
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Many grown up operations don't require you to read the damn things yourself. They put what is relevant to your job into the FOM (FM-1, in Beagle speak), and they keep that manual religiously up to date with everything you need for compliance. The fact that I carry around a digital FOM plus 400 pages of ops specs at my current employer makes compliance HARDER, not EASIER than it was over there. (The technical pubs at Eagle were really good, to be really honest.) I need to be able to flip to Approach and Landing in a hurry, not page through the 47 headings in the gargantuan Flight Operations chapter, then be sent to OpsSpec Z48496939, all while the FO steers us around in a holding pattern because (obscure situation) is transpiring.

The Man wants the airplane flown his way. Dumb though it may be (and sometimes this isn't all that bad an idea), them's the rules.
 
z987k said:
Ya, this is all new to me. I have flown for 3 135s and 2 121s and have never seen such a requirement. Which is why it seems a bit absurd, but I'd also love to read your opspecs that lay this out, because I have not seen it, and most of the time they're fairly cookie cutter. C055 at a 135 multi piston shop and a 121 domestic jet shop are going to be the exact same thing.
I'd like to do me some learning and some guy on a forum said or this captain said is not really good enough.
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As previously mentioned, Eaglevoy inserts the Opspec into their "FM-1". If you're able to get a hold of one, reference 6-2 Operations at Airports with no Control Tower. Here it tells you they reference Ops Specs C064, C080. Within 2.1 of Chapter 6, titled Operational Restrictions, it explains that scheduled and nonscheduled operations are permitted at airports without a Control Tower provided the following requirements are met:

1) Instrument Approach Procedure
2) Weather
3) Airport Advisories
4) Air Traffic Advisories

Expanding on Airport Advisories:
a) The airport must have a suitable means for pilots to acquire airport advisories. These advisories must be obtained regardless of weather conditions, for both inbound and outbound flights.
b) The advisory should include aircraft movements on or near the airport, especially traffic in the pattern. It should also include operations by surface vehicles that may be operating on the airport.
c) Airport advisories can be obtained via company personnel using the company operations frequency or through the FSS located on the field.
d) An airport advisory must be obtained by the pilots: (1) Inbound- At least 10 miles from the aiport. (2) Outbound- prior to taxi.
e) Landing is not authorized if an airport advisory cannot be obtained.

I'm now on my third airline (fourth 121 certificate) and each airline had an absurd rule that could would make me do a double take. That's just the nature of the game.
 
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