Block refund from flight school

Pilot Fighter said:
Let's say that I owe the bank $10K and I'm ready to lose the farm.

If I sell a $10K block of time to raise money to satisfy my debt, in the absence of any other agreement, I would think my only obligation to the buyer would be to provide an airworthy aircraft, as agreed.

The world doesn't always work like Walmart.

Beyond that, my generosity might allow the buyer to sell the time to a third party, but I wouldn't feel obligated. If the money has been spent, what can you expect? He may have no money, only available hours. In my life, I've sold a number of things in which it would have been impossible to provide a refund.
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I get your point. It's a valid one as well. But what if, for a number of different reasons, a person cannot continue? Say they lose their medical or go through a major life changing event. Are they supposed to just lose their 10k due to unforeseen circumstances?
 
Flyinhigh728 said:
I'm not trying to put anyone on blast here. I just wanted to get some advice on the situation since I'm sure it has happened to others on here as well.

I've been as nice as can be with him, but I don't see why it is unheard of to get my money back for unused services. I've tried to go about it in a very friendly and professional way. He won't have an open discussion about it so I'm just not sure what to do.

There are many different reasons that someone cannot continue flying. Does that mean he can just keep the rest of the money? That doesn't seem like good business to me.
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Well, when it comes to flight schools (and especially in the last decade of 2000-2009), there was almost no laws controlling the financial aspects of it. Some states (I think Arizona is one) have finally passed some laws for more accountability for flight schools.


I went to a flight school and dropped ~$26k. It worked out for me, but not for others who dropped 26k. Some dropped 70k for the zero to hero program.

Life lessons learned the hard way:

#1..... Once you give your money to the flight school, it's gone. As in, most likely spent in something else. More capital, the owners BMW, whatever. There is no separate account created for you, Student A, to keep a tab on you financially, all they have is a balance sheet that shows they owe you 50 hrs of block time in a Cessna. It's the same reason flight schools love to put that "fuel surcharge" BS on your flight hour rates, after you already dropped 50 grand (or more). A simple argument of "hey, you already have 50 grand for me, don't charge me more, just take it from that account" usually doesn't work. These students end up paying the hourly surcharge out of pocket. It's a losing fight.

#2..... Never give a dollar to a flight school that you aren't willing to lose. Can you really afford it? This should be a big question mark.


I've seen and known many guys who were completely hosed and even those who went the lawyer route didn't get anything in return. Some of the more committed ones got laws passed to prevent this kinda thing in the future.

I recommend this for further reading:

http://www.jetuniversitysucks.com/




Today, the only place I'd feel comfortable to drop 50 grand would be a large well-known flight school collegiate program like ERAU (but that's gonna cost you a lot more than 50 grand), or a national well-known flight school like ALLATPs.
 
Flyinhigh728 said:
I get your point. It's a valid one as well. But what if, for a number of different reasons, a person cannot continue? Say they lose their medical or go through a major life changing event. Are they supposed to just lose their 10k due to unforeseen circumstances?
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Yes, they probably are "supposed" to lose their $10k.

As previously mentioned, this is what contracts are for, the interests of both parties can be protected.

In my example, the seller acted in good faith and just spent the money. The seller just wanted to trade hours for cash. A deal with a refund option might have sold for $15K.

Now, what do you expect the seller to do, come out of retirement to work as a greeter at Walmart? Or, in a more realistic scenario, the owner might have made the decision to fly all his aircraft to TBO and retire, cashing out and retiring. Those hours might be worthless to the owner and the owner isn't interested in buying them back and attempting to resell them again in less favorable market conditions.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Which is why you get everything in writing.
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From what I've witnessed, those contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on. I saw many guys at jetU have signed contracts of "guaranteed employment on a regional jet" that were not only left without obtaining a job, but also left without the flight training that they paid for. At the end of the day, despite getting lawyers, that signed contract went nowhere. It may be better now with the regulation that has passed in California, Arizona, and Utah, but seriously, far too many people that went to flight schools and dropped 50 grand (or more) were left with nothing more than their [appendage name] in their hands.
 
If the school has a pilot shop you could buy expensive merchandise - and then re sell it. Not a perfect solution but probably the closest way to seeing $$$
 
chrisj said:
If the school has a pilot shop you could buy expensive merchandise - and then re sell it. Not a perfect solution but probably the closest way to seeing $$$
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This is assuming, of course, that if there is an aviator's supply shop, that they would even honor the guy's money.
 
I love flight schools....and we wonder why training is in decline. After you get this resolved, still don't hesitate to review the place for this BS. Save someone in the future from getting screwed. Sad. Hope it all works out man
 
Y'know, I was in the process of writing a stupid rant about a dearth of basic business skills that I've seen in General Aviation, then deleted it because I didn't think there was any real relevance. Then I read something like this....

To the OP - it's very hard for anyone here to give you any kind of crisp advice because situations like this are nuanced and that matters. You've no doubt learned by now that paying up front wasn't a good idea. And yeah, the flight school doesn't want to give back your money to you. Here's a few thoughts I had, predicated on you deciding NOT to fly the time and collect the experience and training:

I would speak directly to the owner first, face to face. Don't make demands, but don't be soft. Whatever your circumstances are that changed, you feel like a refund of your remaining balance is in order. Be polite. Write everything down. If he agrees, then great. Keep in mind that your personal circumstances are not his problem. You paid for him to make a service available to you at a pre-set rate, and he's meeting that obligation. So. What to do now? What is it that you really want to realistically achieve here?

Want to keep it amiable? How about this?

You could sell your hours/account to someone else at a loss. For example - one of the FBOs in this area works on a debit-card system. You don't exactly pay them up front, but you pay in advance to load a balance on a card that they bill services against. People routinely sell their remaining-balance cards to other people at a small loss....so if I have a card with a $1000 on it, and I need to offload, I might offer it up for $950 or $900 - whatever I think will move it.

So in your case, you might consider selling your account balance to another customer at small loss and that customer pays you directly. Doesn't even have to be the lump sum - you can do this over time. I like this because it's a way to extricate you from this with a little bit of pain, keeps you involved and in good faith with the owner (if that's a goal) and lets someone else benefit as well while you recover part of your investment.

Failing any of that, lawyer up and start getting demand letters written. And think about what you want to achieve, because depending on how much money there is at stake, it really may not be worth it.

Final thought: looking at your avatar, I'm wondering if you're in my neck of the woods. If you want, PM me the name of the school - if I know the place or the owner, maybe I can give you some insight. Dunno.
 
gotWXdagain said:
This is exactly what you want.

"Can you produce proof that the Complainant was made aware of your policy?"

He can put whatever date he wants on the thing but without a bona fide signature it's worthless.
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I'm tracking with you! You and I are stating the same thing here, just using different words....
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Let's say that I owe the bank $10K and I'm ready to lose the farm.

If I sell a $10K block of time to raise money to satisfy my debt, in the absence of any other agreement, I would think my only obligation to the buyer would be to provide an airworthy aircraft, as agreed.

The world doesn't always work like Walmart.

Beyond that, my generosity might allow the buyer to sell the time to a third party, but I wouldn't feel obligated. If the money has been spent, what can you expect? He may have no money, only available hours. In my life, I've sold a number of things in which it would have been impossible to provide a refund.
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The OP shouldn't be punished for a flight school owner's lack of business savvy. If he can't refund this guy, he is insolvent.

I would try to be professional, and just go talk to the guy. It is more than fair for you to pay full retail for your hours flown and get a refund on the balance. If you don't get no satisfaction, send a certified letter explaining you would like your money refunded within 30 days and leave your address. Keep copies of everything. Then, go to small claims court.
 
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Did you really drop $10k at a flight school for block flight time?

You can talk with the owner and maybe get a partial refund, or hire an attorney and get a partial refund (minus the attorney fees) or...

Unless you need the balance of that $10k to buy a kidney on the black market or something.... Fly that $10k off, get your flight time out of it and chalk it up as a life lesson.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
CFI A&P said:
Did you really drop $10k at a flight school for block flight time?

You can talk with the owner and maybe get a partial refund, or hire an attorney and get a partial refund (minus the attorney fees) or...

Unless you need the balance of that $10k to buy a kidney on the black market or something.... Fly that $10k off, get your flight time out of it and chalk it up as a life lesson.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I did not drop 10k. That was just an example that someone else used to make a point.
 
I think the whole reason you get a discounted rate by buying a block intime is they you are willing to take the risk of not using it. This is like Hotwire.com for flight schools.
 
<knocks head against wall>

Painful life lesson imminent. Bad part of it is you KNEW better.

Find a lawyer. Pay him/her $200 to draft up a letter requesting a refund on their letterhead.

If that fails, you can try small claims or go big league. Chances are good that you will only recover a fraction of your money, if that.

Richman
 
I'm with Frank on this one. Post the flight schools name. People who take large sums of money for training, then refuse to give said money back don't deserve to be in business. And @Avgirl, you get a free pass on this one (only because you are new here, and seem fairly new to aviation). There is a reason a few states have passed laws preventing this kind of practice. Do some research on Silver State Helicopters (I think), Comair Academy, and JetU.
 
mshunter said:
I'm with Frank on this one. Post the flight schools name. People who take large sums of money for training, then refuse to give said money back don't deserve to be in business. And @Avgirl, you get a free pass on this one (only because you are new here, and seem fairly new to aviation). There is a reason a few states have passed laws preventing this kind of practice. Do some research on Silver State Helicopters (I think), Comair Academy, and JetU.
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How many things do we pay large sums of money upfront for without a written contract? The very reason I don't do that is because of this example by the OP. Listen to a Clark Howard show once because wonderful Spotify didn't exist and you are driving in the middle of nowhere, and try not to learn from the crazies that call in. :)
 
Flyinhigh728 said:
I get your point. It's a valid one as well. But what if, for a number of different reasons, a person cannot continue? Say they lose their medical or go through a major life changing event. Are they supposed to just lose their 10k due to unforeseen circumstances?
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I am definitely not weighing in on the specifics since I don't know nearly enough. But it happens every day.

Let's make it an airplane purchase.

I buy an airplane from you on day one and find out 2 days later I have a terminal condition that gives me a week to live. You might be a nice guy about it but if not, why is my problem a reason for you to lose the benefit of the bargain we made?

Yeah, unused money on deposit is a bit different than that but, assuming an agreement or enforceable no-refund policy, the same principles apply.

My only real suggestion: talk to a lawyer in your state.
 
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