Breastfeeding F9 Pilots Want Privacy at Work

In my short time as a parent I have learned you need to adapt, nothing goes as planned and things change on a daily basis. My wife quit breastfeeding because she was sick of pumping all the time and doing it at work. She also filled a bag up so much it overflowed all over herself when she was "in the zone" typing. A friend of ours ended up not being able to breasfeed at all even though her "birth plan" said otherwise. We were amazed how many people think everything from the birth to raising their child will go according to their "plan" and everyone has to adjust to them. I agree there needs to be accomodations for breast feeding mothers but cmon, YOU can adapt too.
 
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If we could set aside the fact that women are bringing the lawsuit, and the specific nature of the complaint...don't charge me with sexism, etc...

Life involves choices. Certain careers entail certain unavoidable features. Military careers involve deployments. First responders have to be on call. Airline pilots have multi-day trips--read the job requirements straight off the Frontier pilot recruiting website, under "Qualifications:"

  • Ability to travel in and out of the U.S. to all cities/countries served by Frontier Airlines, Inc.
  • Ability and willingness to work weekends, nights, holidays and overnight trips

I mean, we make the choices, but we don't always get to define terms. There have been career paths that I, as a male, have not pursued, because of the lifestyle implications, or what they would have required of me. I didn't pursue those career paths and then sue my employer because the lifestyle wasn't what I wanted.

I wonder how long the current assumption that each individual can dictate the terms of his or her own reality can be sustained... what seems clear is that the experiment is underway!
 
I think so many of you are being the unrealistic ones. Many of us take jobs at stages in our lives that don't involve a husband, kids, or this topic, breastfeeding. I don't know if I will have kids, or even decide to ever get married at this point. So we agree to the terms of our employment based on that point in our lives. Then years pass by, we find some super awesome guy to settle down with, and have a family. With that, deciding to breastfeed not because we want to inconvenience our employer, coworkers or even ourselves. But rather that it is scientifically proven that breastfeeding and breastmilk is always best for babies in so many ways. So let me get this straight? It is perfectly okay for all you critics to dictate sacrificing the health of this hypothetical baby of mine because it requires some temporary accommodations that are minutes, mere minutes. Choose between a baby or my career because you don't have anything that needs accommodations legitimately? Maybe this needs to go under the category of you have no right to have an opinion unless you have been in this situation as a Mom or a man with kids. I think all parents want the very best for their kids, and a career shouldn't get in the way of that or squirmy coworkers. Be a little more open minded. It's much happier that way.
 
Can you explain how the conditions of your employment, and the requirements of your job, (to which you agreed when you were hired) changed because you (hypothetically) got married and had a baby?
 
High_Alpha said:
Can you explain how the conditions of your employment, and the requirements of your job, (to which you agreed when you were hired) changed because you (hypothetically) got married and had a baby?
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No different than if you trip over something and hurt your precious foot, temporary accommodations would have to be made by law, as firing you for something temporary and hopefully not permanent would be highly illegal and discriminatory. This situation is no different. It is temporary, thank goodness, and unlike recovery for an injury, doesn't entertain the possibility of not being able to do my job as a pilot. Unlike an injury, it wouldn't cost anyone anything. So, the terms wouldn't change in all actuality, but the main focus in life probably would. I can see the naysayers point if it cost anything, but it doesn't.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
So a women should have to decide between having a career or being a mother, is what you're saying???

And they can only choose one? o_O
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Max, try to look past the fact that this lawsuit is being brought by women. Regardless of our sex, we make choices about what is most important to us. Sometimes our choices involve sacrifices, whether we are men or women. We can't have everything we want. It's not what I think "should" be, it's what "is." Reality.

Avgirl said:
I can see the naysayers point if it cost anything, but it doesn't.
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If it didn't cost anything, there wouldn't be a lawsuit, because there wouldn't be an issue. Even if there are no additional facilities involved, schedule disruptions, turn time adjustments, etc., would cost something. Look, if the pilot group wants to work for this in the CBA, then work toward it. But I just don't see legal grounds for employees unilaterally changing the terms of their employment.
 
High_Alpha said:
Max, try to look past the fact that this lawsuit is being brought by women. Regardless of our sex, we make choices about what is most important to us. Sometimes our choices involve sacrifices, whether we are men or women. We can't have everything we want. It's not what I think "should" be, it's what "is." Reality.



If it didn't cost anything, there wouldn't be a lawsuit, because there wouldn't be an issue. Even if there are no additional facilities involved, schedule disruptions, turn time adjustments, etc., would cost something. Look, if the pilot group wants to work for this in the CBA, then work toward it. But I just don't see legal grounds for employees unilaterally changing the terms of their employment.
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This is for Pilots, not Priests. Am I mistaken that some oath doesn't exist that all pilots must recite their first day stating that the job will always be number one? People sue all the time for things that don't involve money. This is an ACLU case, not seeking monetary damages. This industry is pretty backwards with respect to how women are treated, and that needs to change. That is why the lawsuit exists. There are pilots that are threatened by girls doing the same job. Claims that we don't earn our jobs the same way, that we get away with more, etc. The days of a job being over for women because they got married or had children are over. If there weren't legal grounds, this case wouldn't exist. The grounds are fairly substantial based on other airlines not being restrictive and many other industries providing the same support.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
So a women should have to decide between having a career or being a mother, is what you're saying???

And they can only choose one? o_O
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No, that's not what we're saying at all. Women can have both. But it's up to the individual woman to make it work, not demand that their employer accommodate their desires.
 
Avgirl said:
This industry is pretty backwards with respect to how women are treated, and that needs to change. That is why the lawsuit exists. There are pilots that are threatened by girls doing the same job. Claims that we don't earn our jobs the same way, that we get away with more, etc. The days of a job being over for women because they got married or had children are over.
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Ok, I need to note that you're the one who keeps talking about women. I'm just talking about the terms of employment. How have they changed? How can an employee unilaterally change the requirements of his job?
 
learflyer said:
Nah. Not scared of teh boobehs. I'm more scared of the immediate reaction of PC and having to immediately support these chicks without thinking of any future consequences and how it affects the rest of us. Judicially this isn't going anywhere anyway. They can either 1. Just by milk at the store. Or 2. Take a FMLA and use that. Don't be suing already financially strapped airlines and spoiling it for the rest of us.

I notice that "female equality" in the professional realm always means the adjudication of a reduction in standards....

"funny that"
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Just buy milk at a store?

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Refer to Doug's earlier post.
 
High_Alpha said:
Ok, I need to note that you're the one who keeps talking about women. I'm just talking about the terms of employment. How have they changed? How can an employee unilaterally change the requirements of his job?
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I have already answered your question. A couple of times, actually. The lawsuit is about women, which is why I am focusing on it. Perhaps it would be best to actually post the lawsuit, instead of a story that briefly mentions it so you can see the real details, not what you think they are. It's late, too difficult to use my phone to find, and so I will find it tomorrow, unless someone finds the actual filing before then.
 
Flying Saluki said:
No, that's not what we're saying at all. Women can have both. But it's up to the individual woman to make it work, not demand that their employer accommodate their desires.
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That's assuming that the employer is supportive of that, which they allege Frontier has not been. Most workplaces are happy to make reasonable accommodations with regard to this. Nursing rooms, freezers to store milk, pump storage. This isn't anything out of the ordinary.
 
High_Alpha said:
Max, try to look past the fact that this lawsuit is being brought by women. Regardless of our sex, we make choices about what is most important to us. Sometimes our choices involve sacrifices, whether we are men or women. We can't have everything we want. It's not what I think "should" be, it's what "is." Reality.
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All I'm saying is it's good to have an XY chromosome. Isn't it? Nature blessed us well, didn't it? We can just be like a bee, and fly from flower to flower and pollinate it and dip out and be done. Done! And not have to necessarily be too involved with the after effect consequences too much after spreading our seed around. Because we are men. Go ahead now and beat upon your chest like King Kong, knuckle draggers. Awesome, isn't it? Let me just grab a hold of my BBC, and hold on real tight and hang on while saying and sing the mighty praises to high holy Jesus. Hallelujah. Amen!

I mean we don't have to deal with all those the annoying body, and hormonal changes. Retaining water, and body fat. The constant urination, the feelings of uncomfort FOR NINE months. The difficulty of sleep. Oh and the really big one, delivery. And I'm sure that I left out several others that they deal with, for raising YOUR CHILDREN!!! BUT WAIT... IT'S NOT OVER!!! ( said in my best, Matthew Lilliard's voice from Scream) They still have to take care of that baby afterwards too.

Women they're not like men, who can just drop a load, literally. And just go back to work so easy. Where as in a man's case he doesn't necessarily have to worry about how dropping his seed will, affect his career progression. Then there's the gender norm and societal issues, men are viewed as the providers. So it's culturally okay for them to go back out into the workforce, easy-peasy without even a second thought. Because he has to kill that Tyrannosaurs and bring it home, and it's his wives triple duty to cook it up for him. While keeping the house clean, and tending to a man's offspring.

I think as a man a lot of you here have no clue what you're talking about. Because you're dealing with things that you can never possibly ever understand, for the simple fact that God "blessed" you with a cock and an XY chromosome. And many maybe even myself included. We have no idea, just how good it is that we have it.

But I'm sure that many of you would be out here singing a Negro spirituals about how we shall overcome, someday. If the situation was reversed, and it was men biologically that assumed the maternal parenting role like a few other species in nature. I would say talk what you know, but you guys already are. You know nothing of the many perils of being a women, and a wife and a mother.

Because you have no clue. No f'ing idea what it is to be a women and have to deal with all the societal pressures that come along with that. How culturally women are expected to sacrifice their futures, their hopes and dreams for their husbands aspirations. And are to be quiet, and stay in the background to be the foundation of a man's success, and future career progression. A women is supposed to be the silent, smile and be wind beneath his wings. And how it can negatively affect their own rise in their career progression, if they want to have it all. Children, a husband and a career. Or how women are expected to just bury their femininity, and blend in, in the workplace and pretend to just be one of the boys. To be able to rise up to eventually bang their head on the glass ceiling. Then when they do, they're demeaned and accused of sleeping their way to the top, and not getting their on their own merits.Or being a righteous man-hating, ball busting bitch.

So reach down dudes, way down between your legs and grab your dicks in hand. Tap your Ruby slippers together three times, with your eyes closed, and say it with me now.

There's nothing like being a man. There's nothing like being a man. There's nothing like being a man!
 
If this suit was about a persons religious beliefs to rest on the Saturday or Sunday, and not be allowed to fly on those days and bid out of seniority to get those days off what would you all think ? Unfortunately your job didn't change you did and not every job can accommodate you. Sorry.
 
SFLAX said:
If this suit was about a persons religious beliefs to rest on the Saturday or Sunday, and not be allowed to fly on those days and bid out of seniority to get those days off what would you all think ? Unfortunately your job didn't change you did and not every job can accommodate you. Sorry.
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Apples and Oranges. If you are going to compare something, try an example that doesn't need time off. Breastfeeding doesn't involve time off, and it certainly isn't religious.
 
The example is not apples and oranges. Both are choices and both need time off from your assigned duty. Companies have accommodated religion by making them clock out, but the company does not have to allow it if it interferes with your normal duty times or assignments and or creates undue safety concerns. So based on that, why is breast feeding not am accommodation that requires time off? These types of lawsuits are shack downs from the ACLU and the company will give in and the minute it's not perfect they will go after them for money damages.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
All I'm saying is it's good to have an XY chromosome. Isn't it? Nature blessed us well, didn't it? We can just be like a bee, and fly from flower to flower and pollinate it and dip out and be done. Done! And not have to necessarily be too involved with the after effect consequences too much after spreading our seed around. Because we are men. Go ahead now and beat upon your chest like King Kong, knuckle draggers. Awesome, isn't it? Let me just grab a hold of my BBC, and hold on real tight and hang on while saying and sing the mighty praises to high holy Jesus. Hallelujah. Amen!

I mean we don't have to deal with all those the annoying body, and hormonal changes. Retaining water, and body fat. The constant urination, the feelings of uncomfort FOR NINE months. The difficulty of sleep. Oh and the really big one, delivery. And I'm sure that I left out several others that they deal with, for raising YOUR CHILDREN!!! BUT WAIT... IT'S NOT OVER!!! ( said in my best, Matthew Lilliard's voice from Scream) They still have to take care of that baby afterwards too.

Women they're not like men, who can just drop a load, literally. And just go back to work so easy. Where as in a man's case he doesn't necessarily have to worry about how dropping his seed will, affect his career progression. Then there's the gender norm and societal issues, men are viewed as the providers. So it's culturally okay for them to go back out into the workforce, easy-peasy without even a second thought. Because he has to kill that Tyrannosaurs and bring it home, and it's his wives triple duty to cook it up for him. While keeping the house clean, and tending to a man's offspring.

I think as a man a lot of you here have no clue what you're talking about. Because you're dealing with things that you can never possibly ever understand, for the simple fact that God "blessed" you with a cock and an XY chromosome. And many maybe even myself included. We have no idea, just how good it is that we have it.

But I'm sure that many of you would be out here singing a Negro spirituals about how we shall overcome, someday. If the situation was reversed, and it was men biologically that assumed the maternal parenting role like a few other species in nature. I would say talk what you know, but you guys already are. You know nothing of the many perils of being a women, and a wife and a mother.

Because you have no clue. No f'ing idea what it is to be a women and have to deal with all the societal pressures that come along with that. How culturally women are expected to sacrifice their futures, their hopes and dreams for their husbands aspirations. And are to be quiet, and stay in the background to be the foundation of a man's success, and future career progression. A women is supposed to be the silent, smile and be wind beneath his wings. And how it can negatively affect their own rise in their career progression, if they want to have it all. Children, a husband and a career. Or how women are expected to just bury their femininity, and blend in, in the workplace and pretend to just be one of the boys. To be able to rise up to eventually bang their head on the glass ceiling. Then when they do, they're demeaned and accused of sleeping their way to the top, and not getting their on their own merits.Or being a righteous man-hating, ball busting bitch.

So reach down dudes, way down between your legs and grab your dicks in hand. Tap your Ruby slippers together three times, with your eyes closed, and say it with me now.

There's nothing like being a man. There's nothing like being a man. There's nothing like being a man!
Click to expand...

Dude haven't you heard there's a war on women!
 
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