ATC privatization bill thrown out

The "old school" training methods have a time and place and is a method that can be effective. It puts more stress on the trainee to be perfect or risk being ridiculed. It makes them strive to be perfect, in a profession that expects perfection. The new age trainees don't take to that well, most come in with an entitled attitude (CTI's especially had one) as well. That is where I am getting at with a time and place for it. They are not good at handling it right out of the gate, they expect to be spoon fed information, not learn on their own, they expect to get a participation trophy. The OJTI training process (training the trainers), is not equipped to change to the new way the young generation needs to be taught. It needs to be overhauled especially at the hard to staff facilities that need to hold on to every asset they get. While some, if not all, who wash out in the end were just not equipped with the brain waves to do the job, some of it can boil down to an antiquated training process.
 
Vector4Food said:
Man oh man you Americans are solidly stuck 20 years ago in the ATC world.

Privatization would have saved you, not doomed you.

Increased safety, less waste, higher wages and better technology.

Setup properly, it's a better system.

Moot point, keep wallowing in the dark ages listening to the trilobites scream about how "dangerous" privatization is.
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The piece of American ATC that was privatized is a complete disaster and had become so worthless that no one will even use it. Talking about flight service of course.
On the other hand in the one place it wasn't privatized, it's still fantastic, and those guys save lives probably every day.
 
z987k said:
The piece of American ATC that was privatized is a complete disaster and had become so worthless that no one will even use it. Talking about flight service of course.
On the other hand in the one place it wasn't privatized, it's still fantastic, and those guys save lives probably every day.
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100% correct. Privatization was tried here. It failed. Time to move on from that failed experiment.
 
Like I said

Managed properly
z987k said:
The piece of American ATC that was privatized is a complete disaster and had become so worthless that no one will even use it. Talking about flight service of course.
On the other hand in the one place it wasn't privatized, it's still fantastic, and those guys save lives probably every day.
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said
 
Speaking of striking, even if we were spun off as per the Shuster bill, we would still be governed by the FLRA and not the NLRB, which means it would still be illegal to perform job actions.
 
greg1016 said:
Speaking of striking, even if we were spun off as per the Shuster bill, we would still be governed by the FLRA and not the NLRB, which means it would still be illegal to perform job actions.
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That's Representative Shuster attempting to have it both way. Not inherently governmental enough to turn over control to the airlines, but too inherently governmental to allow a strike. Pretty pathetic, actually.
 
RDoug said:
That's Representative Shuster attempting to have it both way. Not inherently governmental enough to turn over control to the airlines, but too inherently governmental to allow a strike. Pretty pathetic, actually.
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The big thing is it allows the union to continue to represent other bargaining units that will remain part of the government. NATCA came out for this privatization bill because it is what is good for NATCA, not because it is is what is good for the majority of its members.
 
RobertB said:
It's impossible to compare Canadian ATC to the US when they move basically what California does by itself...
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Could you provide some data to back that up?

I mean on an average traffic volume per controller basis.
 
When you're done digging that up, could you find me the IFR-IFR loss of separation rate per 100,000 for each as well?

With your original statement I assume you already have these, so I'll wait for your answer.
 
Top 10 Total Tower Ops by State Rank 2014 (latest published Canadian data year to compare year to year to USA)
California- 7,446,782
Florida- 5,977,067
Texas- 4,848,580
Arizona- 2,538,646
New York- 2,085,063
Illinois- 1,934,002
Colorado- 1,470,846
Georgia- 1,456,711
Washington- 1,294,917
Pennsylvania- 1,231,363
 
RobertB said:
Top 10 Total Tower Ops by State Rank 2014 (latest published Canadian data year to compare year to year to USA)
California- 7,446,782
Florida- 5,977,067
Texas- 4,848,580
Arizona- 2,538,646
New York- 2,085,063
Illinois- 1,934,002
Colorado- 1,470,846
Georgia- 1,456,711
Washington- 1,294,917
Pennsylvania- 1,231,363
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I asked movements per controller.

Tower ops is a very small piece of the puzzle

You have more tower movements in California because there's just more towers, controlled towers as well. Therefore way more controllers to divide that traffic
 
What I'm trying to get at, is the mentality or belief that controllers are working "pushing tin" style with forty airplanes and no procedures simply isn't true.

I've visited major US units, the work they do is good, and admirable, but it's no different than what happens in Canada, it just happens in more places.
 
Vector4Food said:
I asked movements per controller.

Tower ops is a very small piece of the puzzle

You have more tower movements in California because there's just more towers, controlled towers as well. Therefore way more controllers to divide that traffic
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You actually asked a lot of different questions not just about movements, but I'll answer that one as well. NavCan claims there are more than 1,900 controllers and they moved 12M last year which equals 6,315 ops per controller.
Rinaldi's latest statement to Congress claimed we have 13,882 FAA employees controllers with another 1,375 contract controllers so 15,257 total excluding military facilities and their operations. The USA actually had 134.11M total ops last year according to ATADS which equates to
8,790 ops per controller.
 
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