1500 rule in possible jeopardy

Richman said:
1,500 hours with pilot A does not necessarily equal 1,500 hours with pilot B.

Pilot A ran through a zero to hero course to 250 hours, then successfully warmed the right seat watching the autopilot fly the magenta line while the captain/dispatcher made the tough calls.

Pilot B did his/her CFI at 250 hours and then had 950 hours of dual given and 300 hours of flying night freight.

What the FAA did was eliminate the "coast to the finish line" option. Now you might actually have to be a PIC at some point.

I can teach my 80 year old neighbor how to twiddle knobs until the little triangle is on the line.

All the other stuff takes time, all done in the framework allowing you to scare yourself and survive the process (no guarantee on your undies). Consider it a 1250 hour vetting process.

Richman
Click to expand...

I have noticed the same thing in my limited experience and lower number of hours without a CFI and being a PIC with various jobs that require different demands contributed to my total abilities and decision making as a pilot. I want to dispel any notion that I think I am better, but I have noticed a difference in confidence between those with the same experience versus the magenta army. As I slowly work on my CFI I have realized my goal is not to train pilots or build time, though that is inherent to the big picture of creating confident pilots with decision making ability, as it will be me to assume that liability. Yes, you can still have fun while doing so, it appears.
 
Seggy said:
Captain Haynes also attempted to take the flight controls at various times during the United 232 emergency.
Click to expand...

And bill says to me, Al, I can't control the
airplane. Now I divert my attention from down here, shutting down the
engine, to up here, on the instrument panel. First thing I notice is,
Bill had full left aileron control, calling for a full left turn.
You'd never see that anywhere on a DC-10, much less at 35,000'. He's
also got the yoke right back in his lap. And the only time to do that
is to do that is to embarrass the captain on the ground and hit the
captain in his fat stomach before he can get it out of the way. That's
never there in the air. So that catches my attention real quick. But
what really got my attention was will a full left turn called for, and
a full nose up called for, we were in a descending right turn. And I
tell all pilots around that this is when I said the dumbest thing I've
ever said in my life, I said, "I got it." I didn't have it very long.
Because we immediately determined that we could not control the
airplane: it wouldn't respond to the inputs of the crew.
-Al Haynes

Full text here, http://www.clear-prop.org/aviation/haynes.html


Sorry for the funky formatting.
 
Last edited:
n57flyguy said:
I have noticed the same thing in my limited experience and lower number of hours without a CFI and being a PIC with various jobs that require different demands contributed to my total abilities and decision making as a pilot. I want to dispel any notion that I think I am better, but I have noticed a difference in confidence between those with the same experience versus the magenta army. As I slowly work on my CFI I have realized my goal is not to train pilots or build time, though that is inherent to the big picture of creating confident pilots with decision making ability, as it will be me to assume that liability. Yes, you can still have fun while doing so, it appears.
Click to expand...

It's that you get to the 1,500 "on your own" that's important.

The post commercial phase of a pilot, at least on the civilian track, is critically important. It's time to consolidate that knowledge and skill you've picked up and blend it with some real world decision making and people interfacing. Probably one of the MOST important lessons learned during this time is the ability to say "no".

We can sit here all day and argue about 1490, 1500 or 1510, but the real issue is what you did to get there. If all you did was sit in the right seat, fool with the autopilot and tweet while the Captain was looking over the weather and release, then you've done nothing but enhance your knob twiddling skills and learn where the Starbuckses are on the eastern seaboard.

Take a look at some of the accidents with this in mind, and you'll see what I mean. Ab initio especially. 300 hours in an Airbus sim ain't the same. Not even the same, as someone put it, as 1,000 hours VFR in a 152. Hell, if you can survive 1,000 hours put-putting around VFR in a 152, I bet you've got some interesting stories about dodging weather, landing on some grass strip and meeting Zeke, the airport dog, landing and trying to find someone to replace your alternator control unit at 11pm on a Sunday night or any of the other myriad kinds of WTF,O? moments that MAKE A GREAT PILOT. Why? Because the onus is ON YOU to make the decision. Do you stick with it, or do you fold? Can you keep your head on straight in a REAL crisis (even if it was one of your own making)?

Ernie Gann said it way back when...when the pressure is on, people are DIFFERENT than they seem to be otherwise. We learn a tremendous amount about ourselves and how to handle people and situations when the heat is on, and it's our skin (or ticket) on the line.

That first 1,000 hours is a CRITICAL consolidation and, yes, vetting phase. Get to the other end, and chances are you're someone who can move up to the next rung. I saw a lot of people drop out of the process during that phase, and it was probably for the better.

All the lowbies and Euro-types breathlessly carping "buh-buh-buh...all that time in the sim!" doesn't make it so. All that means is that you can read a checklist and hang on to your bag of Funions when the sim starts rocking, but at the end of the period, the sim bridge is still going to come down and you'll toodle down the street like nothing happened.

"Buh-buh-buh 'The Military!'". Yea? What about them? They have a pilot training budget per pilot that is an order of magnitude greater than any civilian program will ever have. They also toss people who show no aptitude, do dumb stuff, make stupid decisions or are otherwise horrible individuals. During their "consolidation period", they have strong peer pressure and supervision pre/post flight & non-flying time that would NEVER, EVER happen in the civilian world.

Ain't the same. Never will be.

Richman
 
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Richman said:
It's that you get to the 1,500 "on your own" that's important.

Ernie Gann said it way back when...when the pressure is on, people are DIFFERENT than they seem to be otherwise. We learn a tremendous amount about ourselves and how to handle people and situations when the heat is on, and it's our skin (or ticket) on the line.

That first 1,000 hours is a CRITICAL consolidation and, yes, vetting phase. Get to the other end, and chances are you're someone who can move up to the next rung. I saw a lot of people drop out of the process during that phase, and it was probably for the better.

Richman
Click to expand...

Not that what else you said was not important, but this part speaks hugely in what I have seen, and part of what I was talking about. Not only are people different, but the part that no syllabus or checkride has taught me is how the pressure sneaks up - it comes in so many different strange and subtle ways and the art of it is handling it with grace and assertiveness (which may attest more to the persons character as well). It also in part deals with saying no, or making any decision based on safety.

I had an incident where I was more or less told to go fly overgross after expressing my concerns based on my estimations. A particular individual accused me of doing my math wrong, telling me how they have done it before, etc. I refused to fly after getting actual weights (I was off by 50 lb. but still over by 150 lbs) and it was resolved by me being assertive that it was not safe. What is the likely hood of something happening? Slim. But - if I loose an engine, blow a tire on take off or landing, endless possibilities - that's my cert and I am not doing my job. What would the company say? Wow - why did you fly overgross?!

It is an interesting paradigm - it is my job to say no, but when I do, I am told I am not doing my job. That is a very unique kind of pressure/decision situation that only experiencing can show you, and only the PIC can make the decision about what to do in the present tense, not a controlled training environment. Pilots especially do not get paid to say yes, they get paid to say no. I'd also note that some people will resent you for making that distinction, which is another part they have to be prepared to handle in terms of reputation. Suddenly a Private Pilot graduates to a Commercial Pilot within a couple of hours with a large gap of experience to be much more responsible and inheriting more liability. Additionally, the pilot is out of this fun training stage with support to being on their own making decisions and being told they are wrong at times.
 
Richman said:
It's that you get to the 1,500 "on your own" that's important.

The post commercial phase of a pilot, at least on the civilian track, is critically important. It's time to consolidate that knowledge and skill you've picked up and blend it with some real world decision making and people interfacing. Probably one of the MOST important lessons learned during this time is the ability to say "no".

We can sit here all day and argue about 1490, 1500 or 1510, but the real issue is what you did to get there. If all you did was sit in the right seat, fool with the autopilot and tweet while the Captain was looking over the weather and release, then you've done nothing but enhance your knob twiddling skills and learn where the Starbuckses are on the eastern seaboard.

Take a look at some of the accidents with this in mind, and you'll see what I mean. Ab initio especially. 300 hours in an Airbus sim ain't the same. Not even the same, as someone put it, as 1,000 hours VFR in a 152. Hell, if you can survive 1,000 hours put-putting around VFR in a 152, I bet you've got some interesting stories about dodging weather, landing on some grass strip and meeting Zeke, the airport dog, landing and trying to find someone to replace your alternator control unit at 11pm on a Sunday night or any of the other myriad kinds of WTF,O? moments that MAKE A GREAT PILOT. Why? Because the onus is ON YOU to make the decision. Do you stick with it, or do you fold? Can you keep your head on straight in a REAL crisis (even if it was one of your own making)?

Ernie Gann said it way back when...when the pressure is on, people are DIFFERENT than they seem to be otherwise. We learn a tremendous amount about ourselves and how to handle people and situations when the heat is on, and it's our skin (or ticket) on the line.

That first 1,000 hours is a CRITICAL consolidation and, yes, vetting phase. Get to the other end, and chances are you're someone who can move up to the next rung. I saw a lot of people drop out of the process during that phase, and it was probably for the better.

All the lowbies and Euro-types breathlessly carping "buh-buh-buh...all that time in the sim!" doesn't make it so. All that means is that you can read a checklist and hang on to your bag of Funions when the sim starts rocking, but at the end of the period, the sim bridge is still going to come down and you'll toodle down the street like nothing happened.

"Buh-buh-buh 'The Military!'". Yea? What about them? They have a pilot training budget per pilot that is an order of magnitude greater than any civilian program will ever have. They also toss people who show no aptitude, do dumb stuff, make stupid decisions or are otherwise horrible individuals. During their "consolidation period", they have strong peer pressure and supervision pre/post flight & non-flying time that would NEVER, EVER happen in the civilian world.

Ain't the same. Never will be.

Richman
Click to expand...
I mean honestly, they should make it ~1000-1500 PIC not 1500TT.
 
n57flyguy said:
Not that what else you said was not important, but this part speaks hugely in what I have seen, and part of what I was talking about. Not only are people different, but the part that no syllabus or checkride has taught me is how the pressure sneaks up - it comes in so many different strange and subtle ways and the art of it is handling it with grace and assertiveness (which may attest more to the persons character as well). It also in part deals with saying no, or making any decision based on safety.

I had an incident where I was more or less told to go fly overgross after expressing my concerns based on my estimations. A particular individual accused me of doing my math wrong, telling me how they have done it before, etc. I refused to fly after getting actual weights (I was off by 50 lb. but still over by 150 lbs) and it was resolved by me being assertive that it was not safe. What is the likely hood of something happening? Slim. But - if I loose an engine, blow a tire on take off or landing, endless possibilities - that's my cert and I am not doing my job. What would the company say? Wow - why did you fly overgross?!

It is an interesting paradigm - it is my job to say no, but when I do, I am told I am not doing my job. That is a very unique kind of pressure/decision situation that only experiencing can show you, and only the PIC can make the decision about what to do in the present tense, not a controlled training environment. Pilots especially do not get paid to say yes, they get paid to say no. I'd also note that some people will resent you for making that distinction, which is another part they have to be prepared to handle in terms of reputation. Suddenly a Private Pilot graduates to a Commercial Pilot within a couple of hours with a large gap of experience to be much more responsible and inheriting more liability. Additionally, the pilot is out of this fun training stage with support to being on their own making decisions and being told they are wrong at times.
Click to expand...

Do you have a professional flying job now? I must have missed it! Where'd you get picked up?
 
Oh, BTW, with the FAA Reauthorization bill released last week.....no change to the 1500 hour rule....

VERY doubtful the bill gets passed, it probably won't happen until next year at the earliest with everything else going on, but it shows there is no appetite from Congress to change that minimum.
 
Seggy said:
Oh, BTW, with the FAA Reauthorization bill released last week.....no change to the 1500 hour rule....

VERY doubtful the bill gets passed, it probably won't happen until next year at the earliest with everything else going on, but it shows there is no appetite from Congress to change that minimum.
Click to expand...
Let the payscales keep on climbing!

sent via flying squirrel
 
Seggy said:
Many a time.
Say on Monday I am Captain of a flight out of SEA and we loose an engine. The First Officer was the PF and I run the checklists, do the talking, and let him land as he has a handle on the situation. Did I do anything wrong? How would you grade that?
Click to expand...

n57flyguy said:
I had an incident where I was more or less told to go fly overgross after expressing my concerns based on my estimations. A particular individual accused me of doing my math wrong, telling me how they have done it before, etc. I refused to fly after getting actual weights (I was off by 50 lb. but still over by 150 lbs) and it was resolved by me being assertive that it was not safe. What is the likely hood of something happening? Slim. But - if I loose an engine, blow a tire on take off or landing, endless possibilities - that's my cert and I am not doing my job. What would the company say? Wow - why did you fly overgross?!
Click to expand...

If either of you loose an engine, you need to take the plane to maintenance to have it tightened ASAP!
 
z987k said:
I mean honestly, they should make it ~1000-1500 PIC not 1500TT.
Click to expand...
I am not sure if I agree with the PIC part. Somebody who has been instructing for 1000 hours is more qualified than someone who has been sitting right seat in a crew environment?

I agree with what you're getting at though. Some different metrics would be nice rather than the flat 1500.
 
ASpilot2be said:
I am not sure if I agree with the PIC part. Somebody who has been instructing for 1000 hours is more qualified than someone who has been sitting right seat in a crew environment?

I agree with what you're getting at though. Some different metrics would be nice rather than the flat 1500.
Click to expand...
I'm saying I'd like to see 1000 or so hours of real, no hand holding, decision making before the crew environment comes into play. That way when the upgrade comes, you're not only mirroring judgement you've seen, but have your own to draw upon as well. It would also come in handy in knowing how to be a good FO and positively contributing to the crew environment instead of having to rely almost entirely off the experience of the guy in the left seat.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
I would say the Captain handled this situation as it should be handled. Both crew members are fully trained and qualified to handle the engine failure. Egos were checked at the door and it resulted in a successful outcome.



I would say the Captain handled this wrong. Again, both crew members and fully trained and qualified to handle the emergency. The Captain taking the controls is nothing but an ego move and screams bad CRM to me. You're a Captain because your seniority number is higher, not because you're the better pilot.
Click to expand...
The problem is as the captain you are responsible for the out come. Say the FO lands and something happens, bent metal etc. You as Captain are going to have to amswer some questions I think, by all means let them fly while the Captain gets everything set up. Yes everyone is qualified but when you are in charge it's a little different IMO. Like this incident

http://jalopnik.com/5629528/how-i-saved-a-747-from-crashing

The Captain decided if things got ugly, which was VERY likely, he was going to be the one to answer for it so he wanted it to be on his terms and not put the rest of his crew in a sticky situation. I don't blame him one bit.

Have been or are you a Captain? It's not that simple.
 
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Measurement of individual professional skill, merit, and performance is not mutually exclusive with measurement of team skill, merit and performance.

Practice and advancement of individual professional skill does not preclude, nor interfere with, nor detract from practice and advancement of team performance skills.
 
Hacker15e said:
You say that as if I don't have thousands of hours flying, instructing, and evaluating pilots, in a crew airplane.

So, no.
Click to expand...

I am saying it as you keep missing the point that performance will be graded how you react as a crew in an emergency situation in the 121 environment.
 
Hacker15e said:
Measurement of individual professional skill, merit, and performance is not mutually exclusive with measurement of team skill, merit and performance.

Practice and advancement of individual professional skill does not preclude, nor interfere with, nor detract from practice and advancement of team performance skills.
Click to expand...

You as an individual can practice all the V1 cuts you want, then actually have it happen in the airplane, but if the guy you are flying with sucks and shuts down the wrong engine while going through his checklist it is a moot point how well you did as an individual.
 
Seggy said:
I am saying it as you keep missing the point that performance will be graded how you react as a crew in an emergency situation in the 121 environment.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier, many pilots aren't afforded the opportunity to either shine, or figure out they are a sack of hammers.
 
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