Are you pros being paid appropriately?

ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, when you're crazy enough to allow 250 wonders to fly 777s, you probably need to do that.
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Fair point, but falls apart when you consider that regionals were hiring 250 hr pilots and also allowing people to bid-what-they-can-hold in terms of Captaincy. So a 560 hr newhire pilot on a Saab 340 FO could upgrade to Saab 340 CA (good move) and then DEC into a Q400 (clearly not a good move for the 3407 CA). Or worse, a Saab 340 FO to a Q400 DEC. That's a tough transition for a first time Captaincy and first time on that plane.

Oh, and MPL is coming here. Not anytime soon, but once the legacies start pumping out thousands in retirements and not enough pilots entering, you will see it.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Fair point, but falls apart when you consider that regionals were hiring 250 hr pilots and also allowing people to bid-what-they-can-hold in terms of Captaincy. So a 560 hr newhire pilot on a Saab 340 FO could upgrade to Saab 340 CA (good move) and then DEC into a Q400 (clearly not a good move for the 3407 CA).
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I wasn't being serious about that making sense. I was using sarcasm to point out how absurd it is to use those countries as some sort of example of greater safety. I couldn't care less what those other countries require for upgrade. Perhaps I'll care when their aviation system is safer than ours, instead of the other way around. I won't hold my breath.

Oh, and MPL is coming here. Not anytime soon, but once the legacies start pumping out thousands in retirements and not enough pilots entering, you will see it.
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I'm not opposed to MPL. Done right, it can work just fine.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I wasn't being serious about that making sense. I was using sarcasm to point out how absurd it is to use those countries as some sort of example of greater safety. I couldn't care less what those other countries require for upgrade. Perhaps I'll care when their aviation system is safer than ours, instead of the other way around. I won't hold my breath.



I'm not opposed to MPL. Done right, it can work just fine.
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Who hijacked your account? :p
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Who hijacked your account? :p
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Go back and check the discussions on this around the 2009 time frame when ALPA was talking about this. I've always been a supporter of ALPA's position on this (at least the position at the time, no idea what the current administration's view it), which is that MPL is probably coming eventually, and that ALPA should take a role in making sure that it's done correctly, which is possible. Obviously, having a bunch of ATPs is preferable, but when that well dries up, you've got to do something to make sure that quality pilots are in the seats, and not just the 250 hours wonders of years past.
 
You're suggesting that someone who's never commanded anything bigger than a kite is preferable to someone who has 250 hours making bugsmashing decisions? The only possible upside to mpl is that the F/O might KNOW he/she doesn't know squat and just do as they're told.
 
Boris Badenov said:
You're suggesting that someone who's never commanded anything bigger than a kite is preferable to someone who has 250 hours making bugsmashing decisions? The only possible upside to mpl is that the F/O might KNOW he/she doesn't know squat and just do as they're told.
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You should read ALPA's MPL policy before discussing.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Even from the third world country I'm from, the rules there follow seniority, but from a strict hierarchy. You go through FO on all seats, and then you can't be a widebody CA until you are a narrowbody CA and you can't be narrowbody until you've been a CA on a smaller commuter aircraft/propeller aircraft. So once a FO starts as a ATR FO, moves through A320/737, then to the 747/777. Then for upgrade, he has to go back to the ATR as CA, and then 320/737 as CA, and then finally 777/747 as CA. So this system ensures that every pilot who Captains an airliner already has time-in-type beforehand.
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I agree completely with somebody needing time in type before getting to be a Captain, but the model in this quote just doesn't make sense to me. By the time a person goes from turboprop FO to turboprop CA, he/she would have forgotten nearly everything about the airplane and the operations. How is that smart?

And yes, I understand that by stating the law, you aren't saying that you agree with the policy.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
I agree completely with somebody needing time in type before getting to be a Captain, but the model in this quote just doesn't make sense to me. By the time a person goes from turboprop FO to turboprop CA, he/she would have forgotten nearly everything about the airplane and the operations. How is that smart?

And yes, I understand that by stating the law, you aren't saying that you agree with the policy.
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I think if you've already had several years on it as a FO before moving up and then come back to it years later, it will be like driving that long lost car. It would take a small while, but you would be up to speed/on-par a lot quicker than someone with 0 time in that type.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Partially true. The seniority system allowed him to become a Captain on an airliner he had 0 time in. That is a flaw of the unlimited seniority system "bid what you can hold." See above post for safer alternative.
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Nevermind the thousands of airline pilots who safely and successfully upgrade into the hot seat with 0 time in type. He was the unfortunate exception, not the norm.

I agree that'd it would be nice to have experience in the airplane before upgrading into the CA seat but let's not act like they're falling out of the sky here either.
 
The issue with 3407, as pointed out, was training and standards. The captain should probably have never been in the front of an airplane. Period.
The thing is I've seen the same type of pilot make it through non-seniority based systems where management manipulates who gets the upgrade and who does not. I've seen more than one case where a friend of the owner jumps ahead of pilots with better qualifications as well as more time in the company. In the perfect world it would be skill based, but as airline pilots found out in the early days this was not the case.
I'm hardly a big ALPA fan. But really the seniority based system works. It's why even many non-ALPA carriers use it.
 
That seniority based system has also killed our portability, which is very important especially when things go bad. Those who scored and had 30-35+ year careers at legacies love it. Everyone else who has had an airline fail has found out just how portable our skill and longevity is.
 
My airline would love a non-seniority based system. Bring in some new pilots with the promise of fast upgrades, make them captains, demote me to FO. Problem of well-paid captain solved.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The seniority system was created under a regulated system, and career portability was a non-issue then. Instead of bitching about seniority, perhaps you should be bitching about de-regulation.
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Yeah, but deregulation was never suppose to be about the employees or the regulated companies- it was about the consumer getting cheaper airfares, something they got.
It was assumed by most economists that the airlines would go through decades of turmoil and consolidation. I think the final three legacy carriers we have today are just the final result of deregulation and took this long to get sorted out.
All that is left is for the same process to work out on the Regional side where the industry 10 years from now will be very different from what it is today.
 
Actually, Alfred Khan argued that there wouldn't be decades of turmoil. He bamboozled everyone, including Senator Kennedy who helped him push it through, and everyone has suffered in the years since.
 
They didn't want a reduction in service and quality along with it, though. Khan told them that things would continue as they were, only with cheaper promises. He was a conman, and yes, everyone has suffered as a result.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
They didn't want a reduction in service and quality along with it, though. Khan told them that things would continue as they were, only with cheaper promises. He was a conman, and yes, everyone has suffered as a result.
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Of course people want Kolbe beef at Chuck round prices. It aint happening, however. Some domestic airlines have tried to go with quality, but failed such as Midwest Express. What people say they want and what people actually open their wallets to pay for are two different things.
Personally, the libertarian in my is kind of glad the government for out of the business of protecting certain groups over others in the airline industry.... For the most part.
 
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