Allegiant Air Fuel Incident

[deadstick]

There shouldn't be any difference between the book (AFM/FOM/TCO etc) and the line. If/when something goes sideways, you won't have a leg to stand on if you are not operating in compliance with your rules.

Think of it this way: the folks who sign your check want you to fly the airplane in a prescribed manner. Is it unsafe or illegal? If the answer is "no" then that's the way it is.

If you feel there is a better way to do something, then submit the idea. Heck, you might get kudos for saving fuel, etc, but you can just go around flying IAW your personal version of "the book" because it's what you like to do.

 

[Hacker15e]

Just ran into a guy last night who is a newhire at Allegiant. He said one of the pilots in this incident came to his class and spoke about it...and he assured me that it was the FAA's fault, with the NOTAM that excluded scheduled air service.

All sarcasm aside, the guy did say that apparently several other 121 operators were caught off guard by this NOTAM -- which they assumed meant would not impact their flights -- and who were also told when they arrived that they could not land due to the airshow practice.

That's the first I'd heard of that. Any FlightAware sleuths see other flights that tried to land in Fargo but ended up diverting?

 

[Hacker15e]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/unanswered-questions-surround-emergency-allegiant-plane-landing/

Apparently some other folks don't know what "bingo" actually means, either:

That admission by Allegiant has some aviation experts questioning the use of the term "Bingo fuel," by the Allegiant airline executives behind the controls that day. The phrase is military slang generally understood to mean an aircraft is nearly out of fuel.

"Bingo to me means I'm running down to where I need to be on the ground, " said former National Transportation Safety Board Member Mark Rosenker.

"Using the phrase 'Bingo Fuel' sets off alarms in air traffic controllers," said former FAA Associate Administrator Scott Brenner.

He told CBS News he takes that phrase to mean a pilot has less than 10 minutes of fuel left.

Sorry, Mark and Scott, but not military "slang" as shown earlier, nor does it mean any of those three things.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Sorry, Mark and Scott, but not military "slang" as shown earlier, nor does it mean any of those three things.

Yeah but it sounds tacticool.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/unanswered-questions-surround-emergency-allegiant-plane-landing/

Apparently some other folks don't know what "bingo" actually means, either:


Sorry, Mark and Scott, but not military "slang" as shown earlier, nor does it mean any of those three things.

If I were a controller and had planes stacked up and somebody told me they were at bingo fuel state, I would clear them to land immediately or advise them to fly to their bingo field.

I wouldn't think there was an emergency on the horizon.

 

[MikeD]

If I were a controller and had planes stacked up and somebody told me they were at bingo fuel state, I would clear them to land immediately or advise them to fly to their bingo field.

I wouldn't think there was an emergency on the horizon.

If one wants to use brevity, use it correctly.

The three-C's of comm: clear, concise, correct. It's that way for a reason.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

If one wants to use brevity, use it correctly.

The three-C's of comm: clear, concise, correct. It's that way for a reason.

Are you agreeing with me or correcting me?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Are you agreeing with me or correcting me?

Is he Navy or Air Force?

"FIGHT'S ON!" <---See how cool that sounds?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

An article I read anonymously quoted an Allegiant pilot stating that if they ask for extra fuel, they essentially get bullied into accepting a lower amount. Is this typical in the 121 world? How do you deal with that as a flight crew?

Look at your left shoulder. Now look at your right. Count how many stripes you see. Then count how many the dispatcher has on the shoulders of his polo shirt. The guy with the most stripes wins.

You might not be like other dispatchers then.... more than once I've asked for more fuel, been denied, and then landed short because we had to deviate from the filed flight plan for XYZ reasons.

Denied? You forget how to count stripes, son? First you ask. Then you order. All else fails, set the brake. Simple.

Management guys fly by the book they wrote. By that point "real world" is gone. Be a pilot first, manage in your other time. Too much mgmt time leads to issues, as seen here. Gotta keep the line in perspective.

Some of the best pilots I flew with were management pilots. And some of the worst, too. Gee, sounds a lot like regular line pilots!

There is nothing special about a management pilot. They're pilots just like you. They should be neither venerated nor vilified.

 

[MikeD]

Are you agreeing with me or correcting me?

Agreeing and building on

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Agreeing and building on

Being quoted confused me.

 

[Eagle421flyer]

Just ran into a guy last night who is a newhire at Allegiant. He said one of the pilots in this incident came to his class and spoke about it...and he assured me that it was the FAA's fault, with the NOTAM that excluded scheduled air service.

All sarcasm aside, the guy did say that apparently several other 121 operators were caught off guard by this NOTAM -- which they assumed meant would not impact their flights -- and who were also told when they arrived that they could not land due to the airshow practice.

That's the first I'd heard of that. Any FlightAware sleuths see other flights that tried to land in Fargo but ended up diverting?

Honestly I haven't looked at the NOTAM or anything, at all. That being said it makes me wonder when they are the only 121 carrier that flies in there that makes the news.....

 

[Blackhawk]

Communicating clearly and concisely based your audience. Communication is not saying or writing something, it's saying or writing something in a format the receiver understands.
The air boss on a carrier may understand "bingo fuel", but if you use that phrase on an FAA controller there is a good chance that there will be ambiguity about the meaning as it is not a standard civilian term. The pilot/controller glossary was developed for a reason. Someone did not just get a hair up their rear end one day and decide to put it together. It's another document written in the blood of past misunderstanding.

 

[derg]

I don't know what the extenuating circumstances were, but if that really was a "carpet dance", is that the way Delta maintains a just saftey culture? "Carpet dance" to me means possible punitive action and that is not the way to discover or correct saftey concerns IMO. If that's not the case, nevermind.

I've landed with 15 minutes left. Not a peep from the POI/FAA/CP. Only an inquiry from the ACP and that was that. My extenuating circumstance was a gear problem though...

I don't feel like there should be a "carpet dance" with this unless there was negligence. Which doesn't seem to be the case with the Allegiant incident either I think.

I admire your passion, but that is not the case.

 

[derg]

Is he Navy or Air Force?

"FIGHT'S ON!" <---See how cool that sounds?

Flaps one?

 

[SurferLucas]

Flaps one?

Huh? (Looks around), did you call for the after start?

 

[#1FMS]

Look at your left shoulder. Now look at your right. Count how many stripes you see. Then count how many the dispatcher has on the shoulders of his polo shirt. The guy with the most stripes wins.



Denied? You forget how to count stripes, son? First you ask. Then you order. All else fails, set the brake. Simple.



Some of the best pilots I flew with were management pilots. And some of the worst, too. Gee, sounds a lot like regular line pilots!

There is nothing special about a management pilot. They're pilots just like you. They should be neither venerated nor vilified.

In over 10 yrs dispatching, I have NEVER met a single dispatcher who bullied a crew into accepting less fuel. I have experienced captains being less than professional in demanding more fuel, even when they
have plenty (on VFR days, when no one else is asking for more fuel).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It does happen at some airlines. AirTran didn't. But Pinnacle did.

 

[queeno]

From an ATC point of view there are only two phrases we are to respond to, " minimum fuel and emergency fuel " Bingo fuel , iam running a little short etc mean nothing. I got burned once trying to be a nice guy and after that when ever i got one of those ambiguous fuel low requests i would respond , " advise when minimum fuel and say fuel till empty in minutes" that would separate the wheat from the chaff pretty quick.

 

[RDoug]

From an ATC point of view there are only two phrases we are to respond to, " minimum fuel and emergency fuel " Bingo fuel , iam running a little short etc mean nothing.

I'll add two others from an ATC standpont: Pan Fuel and Mayday Fuel.