Luigi
Well-Known Member
I have no idea why you think that would be necessary in the real world...
Allegiant Air Fuel Incident
- Thread starter Murdoughnut
- Start date
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
You might not be like other dispatchers then.... more than once I've asked for more fuel, been denied, and then landed short because we had to deviate from the filed flight plan for XYZ reasons.
I reached down, made sure it was set and pulled out the bagel I bought in the terminal.
Then I told the mechanic that it was ok because we can wait until the part arrives and the airplane is fixed.
My IOE captain looked at me, grinned and said, "You're gonna do alright".
Often, it is.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I don't know what the extenuating circumstances were, but if that really was a "carpet dance", is that the way Delta maintains a just saftey culture? "Carpet dance" to me means possible punitive action and that is not the way to discover or correct saftey concerns IMO. If that's not the case, nevermind.
I've landed with 15 minutes left. Not a peep from the POI/FAA/CP. Only an inquiry from the ACP and that was that. My extenuating circumstance was a gear problem though...
I don't feel like there should be a "carpet dance" with this unless there was negligence. Which doesn't seem to be the case with the Allegiant incident either I think.
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etflies
Keeping calm, Chiving on.
You'd be surprised. I haven't run into it much, but it has happened.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
You wouldn't believe how frequently captains have to tell any number of people that until X is accomplished, we're not going anywhere.
It seems to be happening about once a week right now.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
What did your use of the word bingo do other than add confusion to the situation?
If a 121 guy told me he was at bingo, I'd assume that he had a pleasant (fuel, gates, mx) non-emergency divert option.
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Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
I've witnessed it firsthand, at multiple airlines.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
A few points.
1. FOMs will contain standard phraseology that is IAW the pilot controller glossary for such situations and may perhaps dictate when you use them. I know mine is very specific.
2. If 121 training departments are teaching phrases that are not IAW their FOM, OM or the Pilot/Controller Glosary they are wrong.
3. Use standard phrases, especially in these situations.
4. Fuel planning. You also have to fly the plan. If your fuel plan is based upon a CI number and you fly a different speed, even if the FMS "gives" it to you, need to run the fuel numbers.
5. Yes, these guys should have seen the NOTAM, but the NOTAM system is broken. No, we don't need plain English NOTAMS. For crying out loud, I have enough pages to go through without it being plain English. Someday I need to roll out a flight release in my hotel room and take a picture of it- especially one with a couple alternates. They are novels- as Derg pointed out- firework displays 50 miles away. Burned out light bulbs on 100' towers 15 miles north. Blah, blah, blah, blah, closed airport for airshow, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Sorry, we're human. Too easy to miss that stuff. 121 world needs to catch up with Foreflight. "Hmmm... What is that red NOTAM flag on the airport diagram?"
6. Bird activity. Required by the military as a CYA. It's a meaningless phrase over the radio just in case someone has a bird strike. Meaningless in that it is now inserted into every ATIS where required no matter what. Even if there were birds at 1453z, at 1545z they may be gone.
Much more useful are bird messages from TOWER.
Ok- someone tell me why my ______ iPhone keeps capitalizing TOWER and some other words?
1. FOMs will contain standard phraseology that is IAW the pilot controller glossary for such situations and may perhaps dictate when you use them. I know mine is very specific.
2. If 121 training departments are teaching phrases that are not IAW their FOM, OM or the Pilot/Controller Glosary they are wrong.
3. Use standard phrases, especially in these situations.
4. Fuel planning. You also have to fly the plan. If your fuel plan is based upon a CI number and you fly a different speed, even if the FMS "gives" it to you, need to run the fuel numbers.
5. Yes, these guys should have seen the NOTAM, but the NOTAM system is broken. No, we don't need plain English NOTAMS. For crying out loud, I have enough pages to go through without it being plain English. Someday I need to roll out a flight release in my hotel room and take a picture of it- especially one with a couple alternates. They are novels- as Derg pointed out- firework displays 50 miles away. Burned out light bulbs on 100' towers 15 miles north. Blah, blah, blah, blah, closed airport for airshow, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Sorry, we're human. Too easy to miss that stuff. 121 world needs to catch up with Foreflight. "Hmmm... What is that red NOTAM flag on the airport diagram?"
6. Bird activity. Required by the military as a CYA. It's a meaningless phrase over the radio just in case someone has a bird strike. Meaningless in that it is now inserted into every ATIS where required no matter what. Even if there were birds at 1453z, at 1545z they may be gone.
Much more useful are bird messages from TOWER.
Ok- someone tell me why my ______ iPhone keeps capitalizing TOWER and some other words?
Luigi
Well-Known Member
That's annoying I'm sure. I hate the captains that call and say "release fuel is now xxx"
"Ok, real quick what's going on out there that I'm not seeing, and I'll shoot you and amendment for the fuel increase?"
I've not actually had a fuel argument with anyone yet, so I just assume that's not necessary and maybe sometimes your captains call up and say something really stupid or are immediately defensive when the dispatcher answers. Communication is important.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
No, no, this was after the "communication."
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Here is the thing....
'Stuff' does happen on the line all the time and I can easily see how a 'perfect' storm' can develop and you are in this situation. As the esteemed Captain @Cruise said, the NOTAM systems sucks and even something big like this can be missed. Management or not, 99.9% of the time, just get training and take steps to correct it from happening again.
HOWEVER, from my understanding, Allegiant Flight Operations management is scum. They are vindictive, have a horrific safety culture, and have ruined careers because they are scumbags. If it were a regular line guy they would have been fired already by these management asses. These guys should be fired and out on the street as far as I am concerned. That is what they would have done to others at the company that made this mistake under the culture they created so it is only fair.
I am hopeful that the Teamsters and Pilot group can take steps to help correct the culture there and use this event as the turning point. I remember only a few years ago TSA and Spirit used to have a contest on who had the worst Flight Operations Management.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704032704575268720519844844
Some folks on here will recognize the name in the above article. First [HASHTAG]#NEVER[/HASHTAG]FORGET. Secondly, it is absolutely deplorable he is still in a management position at another airline. Shame on the FAA. Third, at least TSA was able to change their culture after this incident.. Hope that happens with Allegiant.
'Stuff' does happen on the line all the time and I can easily see how a 'perfect' storm' can develop and you are in this situation. As the esteemed Captain @Cruise said, the NOTAM systems sucks and even something big like this can be missed. Management or not, 99.9% of the time, just get training and take steps to correct it from happening again.
HOWEVER, from my understanding, Allegiant Flight Operations management is scum. They are vindictive, have a horrific safety culture, and have ruined careers because they are scumbags. If it were a regular line guy they would have been fired already by these management asses. These guys should be fired and out on the street as far as I am concerned. That is what they would have done to others at the company that made this mistake under the culture they created so it is only fair.
I am hopeful that the Teamsters and Pilot group can take steps to help correct the culture there and use this event as the turning point. I remember only a few years ago TSA and Spirit used to have a contest on who had the worst Flight Operations Management.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704032704575268720519844844
Some folks on here will recognize the name in the above article. First [HASHTAG]#NEVER[/HASHTAG]FORGET. Secondly, it is absolutely deplorable he is still in a management position at another airline. Shame on the FAA. Third, at least TSA was able to change their culture after this incident.. Hope that happens with Allegiant.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
It didn't...controller just said "turn heading xxx, descend to xxx, SeaTac airport at 2 o'clock and whatever miles". Maybe our controllers are just better here
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Some LAMA guys may recognize the name of the other pilot too.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
It sounds like you suggested that Bingo describes an absolute low fuel state or fuel state emergency instead of a decision point.
Obviously, you made your point.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Management guys fly by the book they wrote. By that point "real world" is gone. Be a pilot first, manage in your other time. Too much mgmt time leads to issues, as seen here. Gotta keep the line in perspective.
Been there, seen it, done it, got the t-shirt. You can't find a replacement for pure line flying. It's different, and very important. Any mgmt pilot not flying at least 1 true line trip (with "life" happening on the line) a month loses perspective quickly. It's true and obviously proven.
Been there, seen it, done it, got the t-shirt. You can't find a replacement for pure line flying. It's different, and very important. Any mgmt pilot not flying at least 1 true line trip (with "life" happening on the line) a month loses perspective quickly. It's true and obviously proven.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
True... but some management pilots are in management because they want to manage (and write books, good or bad) and some are in management because they pretty much suck too much to be a full time pilot. I'd say both of these guys have a history of poor decision making that goes back long before they were hired at Allegiant, let alone pushed back on this flight.
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
I've personally witnessed management pilots deuce on the book they wrote and do whatever they felt like instead because "I'm the one who makes the rules." Not sure which is worse, the ones who forgot that books don't know how to fly airplanes or the ones who don't think the books apply to them.