Are you pros being paid appropriately?

[Runincolorado]

I find pilot comp abysmally low, but most of the general public see it as fair. All until they find out actual salary numbers and it becomes "OMG I never knew the person I trust my life to who is flying this thing makes so little!"

 

[scott_l]

Does anyone have a pilot compensation survey from pro pilot world or nbaa?

 

[Nark]

What boggles me is that unions allow these absurd first year pay rates. The entire point of collective bargaining is to eliminate the whipsaw. That is, to align the collective interests of all of the proles so as to compete with the collective interests of the owners of the means of production. But damned if we don't just fall all over ourselves to Balkanize at the drop of a hat. Give away the little airplanes, I don't want to fly them! Pay first year dudes slave wages, more for me! Etc etc.

And sure, someone will no doubt come along and say "look, bub, I'm not a charity...I gotta look out for #1". And fair enough. But again, the entire point of collective bargaining is that your rational self-interest is aligned with that of the rest of the group. Otherwise, it doesn't work for anyone. Sadly, this not-particularly-challenging concept seems to elude a large number of our sort-of-college-educated sky-blue/dark-cream collared brethern, and I fear ever shall it be so.

Or if you prefer, in the immortal words of Dark Helmet: "Evil will always triumph over Good, because Good is dumb."

The problem/solution is easy. Despite paying dues, you aren't part of the "collective". Not until after year one, are you allowed full Union protection.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was group that protected all pilots?

 

[mshunter]

I find pilot comp abysmally low, but most of the general public see it as fair. All until they find out actual salary numbers and it becomes "OMG I never knew the person I trust my life to who is flying this thing makes so little!"

" But I still got the cheapest flight from Expedia! Will we still arrive on time?"

 

[Blackhawk]

The idea of the union negotiating for all the regionals collectively is ludicrous. At XJT we can't even get two pilot groups to agree on PBS.

 

[trafficinsight]

I always find it humorous when first year FOs rail against companies that pay first year FO wages. The airlines do so because people like you were willing to fly for that wage.

Y'know, I kinda have a problem with this line of thinking because the options at least for the time I've been watching, not a trivial amount of time either, are thus:

1.) Get in there, get it over with, and move forward.

2.) Wait forever for something to happen, it never does, die a CFI.

3.) Give up and become a truck driver or something.

All of the above are viable options i guess. Things appear to be improving and that's nice. If you enjoy being a CFI and are good at it, lots of money to be made, but we all must, at some point, decide how bad we really want or need something and choose accordingly, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to complain.

 

[Stone Cold]

Y'know, I kinda have a problem with this line of thinking because the options at least for the time I've been watching, not a trivial amount of time either, are thus:

1.) Get in there, get it over with, and move forward.

2.) Wait forever for something to happen, it never does, die a CFI.

3.) Give up and become a truck driver or something.

All of the above are viable options i guess. Things appear to be improving and that's nice. If you enjoy being a CFI and are good at it, lots of money to be made, but we all must, at some point, decide how bad we really want or need something and choose accordingly, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to complain.

Those are not the only options.

 

[surreal1221]

Looking at 1922 doesn't give you the best picture of how far pilot pay has fallen. Pilot pay didn't really start to go up until after Decision 83. When the bigger, heavier, and faster airplanes showed up in the 40s and 50s after Decision 83's pay formula was codified, pilot pay skyrocketed. And then a couple of decades of pattern bargaining with the protection of a regulated industry just made it better and better. If you take the peak 1970s era pay rates and adjust them for inflation, you find that pilots were making the equivalent of well over $500k then.

Pilot Pay History 101.

Thanks Todd.

Youda Man.

PS...you get that plane yet?

 

[Blackhawk]

Y'know, I kinda have a problem with this line of thinking because the options at least for the time I've been watching, not a trivial amount of time either, are thus:

1.) Get in there, get it over with, and move forward.

2.) Wait forever for something to happen, it never does, die a CFI.

3.) Give up and become a truck driver or something.

All of the above are viable options i guess. Things appear to be improving and that's nice. If you enjoy being a CFI and are good at it, lots of money to be made, but we all must, at some point, decide how bad we really want or need something and choose accordingly, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to complain.

You don't understand. I don't have a problem with someone going to a regional- after all, I'm at one.
I just find it amusing that people get to a regional and act shocked once they start to experience their contract and the low wages, and start to ask questions like how a regional gets away with it. Obviously the regionals get away with it because people take the jobs.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Pilot Pay History 101. Thanks Todd. Youda Man. PS...you get that plane yet?

You need to get on Facebook.

I got it back a few months ago.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Y'know, I kinda have a problem with this line of thinking because the options at least for the time I've been watching, not a trivial amount of time either, are thus:

1.) Get in there, get it over with, and move forward.

2.) Wait forever for something to happen, it never does, die a CFI.

3.) Give up and become a truck driver or something.

All of the above are viable options i guess. Things appear to be improving and that's nice. If you enjoy being a CFI and are good at it, lots of money to be made, but we all must, at some point, decide how bad we really want or need something and choose accordingly, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to complain.

I've gotten paid more every year I have flown as a professional. Granted QOL issues abound....

 

[z987k]

Y'know, I kinda have a problem with this line of thinking because the options at least for the time I've been watching, not a trivial amount of time either, are thus:

1.) Get in there, get it over with, and move forward.

2.) Wait forever for something to happen, it never does, die a CFI.

3.) Give up and become a truck driver or something.

All of the above are viable options i guess. Things appear to be improving and that's nice. If you enjoy being a CFI and are good at it, lots of money to be made, but we all must, at some point, decide how bad we really want or need something and choose accordingly, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to complain.

Professional aviation does not begin and end at CFI to RJ FO.

 

[trafficinsight]

Professional aviation does not begin and end at CFI to RJ FO.

No way, really? I never knew!

 

[trafficinsight]

You don't understand. I don't have a problem with someone going to a regional- after all, I'm at one.
I just find it amusing that people get to a regional and act shocked once they start to experience their contract and the low wages, and start to ask questions like how a regional gets away with it. Obviously the regionals get away with it because people take the jobs.

I don't know anyone who was shocked by it. Most of us have a goal in mind and its just the price of admission. That's what I'm getting at.

 

[Blackhawk]

I don't know anyone who was shocked by it. Most of us have a goal in mind and its just the price of admission. That's what I'm getting at.

Go back through this thread. Pilots are upset at first year wages. But first year wages are what they are because pilots- such as those complaining about first year wages on this thread- were willing to work for low wages.

 

[trafficinsight]

Go back through this thread. Pilots are upset at first year wages. But first year wages are what they are because pilots- such as those complaining about first year wages on this thread- were willing to work for low wages.

I think pilots are upset about wages in general but nobody tells mainline captains who got shafted to stop whining or quit.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think pilots are upset about wages in general but nobody tells mainline captains who got shafted to stop whining or quit.

A mainline captain that got shafted didn't just agree months prior to accept the job for that wage. The wages were a hell of a lot higher when he got hired, and he got that new wage crammed down his throat through bankruptcy.

 

[ChasenSFO]

In short, no, we're not being paid enough. Especially at the bottom end of the spectrum. And with ALL the majors posting up such huge numbers right now, there is enough to go around.

Yet, despite the big numbers, they want more out sourcing, and some like United are putting segment fees on pass travel for most eligibles to squeeze even more out of the mostly over-worked and under-paid employees as they deal with minimum staffing and the constant thread of their jobs going to Swissport or DGS.

 

[Max Power]

I always find it humorous when first year FOs rail against companies that pay first year FO wages. The airlines do so because people like you were willing to fly for that wage.

Here's my take on this argument. In any profession, you need experience. But you can't get that experience without a job. So you take a job to get experience and hope to move on from there. The problem is that the move on took a lot longer than people thought it would ( or they never could or did). Throw in 9/11 and the financial crisis and There's validity to the statement that we as pilots sold ourselves out, but it's not the end all and be all. I mean, people go into social work and things of that nature where the pay is low because they enjoy it and there's not a stigma there because it's expected (and the social reward?). As a pilot of the more recent generations, you knew you wouldn't make much to start, but if you kept moving, you wouldn't be at the bottom long.

And what else can you do when presented that low pay opportunity in something larger? It's not like, at least in my area and most Rust Belt towns, there was a giant charter scene or cancelled checks, auto parts,etc. to build some good time in medium twins. And when you are presented that first job opportunity, what do you do, especially if hiring is slow or you have no other way to build time? Say " Nah, I'll wait and keep instructing" or whatever you did to build time? But if you keep doing that, now you don't have a lot of "quality" time. Maybe that opening at LO-Rent airlines you take NOW puts you in a good position for a legacy hiring boom, but you don't know that. Maybe if you wait six months for a better job, that's all the difference in your career.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

The problem is airline wages based on seniority. Few professional industries reset your pay to intern level after a lateral move. Its crap.

Maybe pay should be based upon experience (hours, to start) like any other business?
But that'll never happen.