Logging UPT time

B

Byotz

New Member
Hey folks, new user here. Looking for help on a couple questions I have regarding logging civilian time in military aircraft. To clarify, before I went to UPT I had a private pilot, multi-engine land certificate.

First question: can I log dual in the T-6 (or T-1) without having the instructors signature in my logbook?

Second question: can I log SIC and dual in the T-1 (assuming the answer to the above questions is yes)?

Thanks for any help. My personal logbook is a mess. As a F-15E WSO turned reserve KC-135 pilot I'm really trying to clean it up while legally squeezing whatever time I can out of everything before I take my ATP practical next summer!
 
First off understand that the FAA and airlines have different ways of counting time.
FAA- if you were already a rated pilot all of your time in flight school counts as PIC time as long as you were not flying an aircraft that required a type rating. If you were not instrument rated this would include your instrument training.
Airlines- only count PIC time when you signed for the airplane. This is a general rule and varies from one to another.
Dual- let me go back and look at the FARS.
 
Byotz said:
Hey folks, new user here. Looking for help on a couple questions I have regarding logging civilian time in military aircraft. To clarify, before I went to UPT I had a private pilot, multi-engine land certificate.

First question: can I log dual in the T-6 (or T-1) without having the instructors signature in my logbook?

Second question: can I log SIC and dual in the T-1 (assuming the answer to the above questions is yes)?

Thanks for any help. My personal logbook is a mess. As a F-15E WSO turned reserve KC-135 pilot I'm really trying to clean it up while legally squeezing whatever time I can out of everything before I take my ATP practical next summer!
Click to expand...

Where were you a WSO?

Blackhawk hit the most important points. Yes, much of that is loggable so far as the FAA is concerned to get, for example, an ATP. No, nearly all of it is useless with respect to applying to airlines later on down the road.

Like you, I had my tickets before I went to UPT. I currently have all my UPT time logged as dual, except for the solos which are logged as PIC.

When I was a UPT student, I was trying to sort out how to log it all, considering that I was flying turbojet aircraft, which by all FAA standards should require a type to operate as PIC. The FSDO I visited said that, since no Form 8s were issued at UPT, they considered the pre-area-solo checkride (Midphase, etc) as the "type qualification". Based on that info, at the time I logged everything before midphase (except the pattern solos) as dual, and everything after the check as PIC.

Later I changed that, considering that the airlines all only consider time in which you signed the release for the airplane as PIC time. As a student, I never signed the release except for on solos, so pretty easy. Likewise, your WSO time is useless even if you were the "sole manipulator" and had a multi rating (since you don't have a pilot Form 8 in the Dark Gray, you aren't actually qualified to fly it with just a FAA multi).

So, yes, you can log UPT time as dual even without IP signatures; recommend you keep your TIMS printout as backup evidence. I wouldn't log it as SIC, personally, since as a student you aren't even really the second in command so far as the AF is concerned.
 
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Byotz said:
Hey folks, new user here. Looking for help on a couple questions I have regarding logging civilian time in military aircraft. To clarify, before I went to UPT I had a private pilot, multi-engine land certificate.

First question: can I log dual in the T-6 (or T-1) without having the instructors signature in my logbook?

Second question: can I log SIC and dual in the T-1 (assuming the answer to the above questions is yes)?

Thanks for any help. My personal logbook is a mess. As a F-15E WSO turned reserve KC-135 pilot I'm really trying to clean it up while legally squeezing whatever time I can out of everything before I take my ATP practical next summer!
Click to expand...

Are you flying -135s out of the Shady J?
 
On the Navy side the method that is currently in vogue- all flight time where you're aircraft Aircraft Commander time is logged as PIC (including screw time if you've got more than two pilots since you signed for the plane), otherwise your pilot time is SIC (regardless if your the FP or CP) and screw time doesn't count... This includes flight school/UPT. As for the SIC vs dual argument... There's no spot for duel in a Navy logbook, and you still bear a burden of responsibility in the event of a mishap etc, as the student... Aka You're a contributing member of the team, not a customer.

Dudes are getting hired at Delta hand over fist right now logging time in this manner, but your mileage may very.
 
This is why I recommend using an electronic log book so you can sort out the difference between legal time (FAA), and employer time. Different airline emphasize different times. Use your logbook for the legal, FAA definition of flight time then break it down in an electronic logbook for employers.
Also remember that the FAA and most employees permit logging of multiple conditions that the military may not permit. For example, in the Army we could log night or IMC, not both. FAA says you can log both. Employees understand there may be differences on such things between your military close out and your FAA logbook.
 
Thanks all. Hacker - that FSDO answer sounds just about what I'm looking for. I've actually got two PIC columns in my electronic logbook now: PIC and Part 1 PIC. Lots of PIC time built up, but not so much on the Part 1 PIC.

I was a WSO at SJ for my entire backseat career, and yeah, now I'm flying tankers at SJ....I guess that pretty much narrows down the ID.
 
As far as the type rating stuff - since the T-6 doesn't have a type rating I figured that's pretty much N/A, right? Same way I was allowed to log PIC (sole manipulator PIC) in the strike. I hope so, anyway, because I just found my T-34 logbook from pensacola.
 
Ok, we need to delve into FARS. As a former military pilot I know we pretty much blew them off, but that is what dictates things here.
FAR1
"Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight."
"
"Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or..."

"
§61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
...
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
 
Thanks for digging that up blackhawk...seems to confirm what we've been talking about regarding PIC and Dual recieved.

This crap is complicated...maybe I'll just go back to logging nav time!
 
Byotz said:
As far as the type rating stuff - since the T-6 doesn't have a type rating I figured that's pretty much N/A, right? Same way I was allowed to log PIC (sole manipulator PIC) in the strike. I hope so, anyway, because I just found my T-34 logbook from pensacola.
Click to expand...

This is where that FSDO opinion is key -- for public-use turbojet aircraft with no civil type certificate (and thus no ability to get an FAA ETR or LOA), they consider the Form 8 as the "type rating".

So, WSOs logging "sole manupulator" time just isn't valid since WSOs don't have a pilot Form 8 in it. I don't know a single FSDO today or employer today that would count that time either toward experience needed for a rating or experience required for a flying job.

I remember an oldhead WSO when I was in the Rockets circa '99/'00 who was friendly with some inspector at some FSDO, and who had convinced that inspector to allow his WSO time to count toward total time for his ATP, and I have heard of that happening anecdotally with other WSOs and other FSDOs back pre-1990s, but it is the black swan rather than the norm.

There are a few good threads on this through the years over on APC that it would be worth your time to read if you are so interested. Bottom line: your WSO time just doesn't count for anything, and your UPT time is ultimately mostly dual/student time with a sprinkling of some solo PIC time.
 
Hacker15e said:
This is where that FSDO opinion is key -- for public-use turbojet aircraft with no civil type certificate (and thus no ability to get an FAA ETR or LOA), they consider the Form 8 as the "type rating".

So, WSOs logging "sole manupulator" time just isn't valid since WSOs don't have a pilot Form 8 in it. I don't know a single FSDO today or employer today that would count that time either toward experience needed for a rating or experience required for a flying job.

I remember an oldhead WSO when I was in the Rockets circa '99/'00 who was friendly with some inspector at some FSDO, and who had convinced that inspector to allow his WSO time to count toward total time for his ATP, and I have heard of that happening anecdotally with other WSOs and other FSDOs back pre-1990s, but it is the black swan rather than the norm.

There are a few good threads on this through the years over on APC that it would be worth your time to read if you are so interested. Bottom line: your WSO time just doesn't count for anything, and your UPT time is ultimately mostly dual/student time with a sprinkling of some solo PIC time.
Click to expand...

There were S-3 Viking NFOs who were able to do the same thing, time towards ATP. @Pilot Fighter was one of them. Also had one at my office who did the same and was flying regionals before he came to us. As the S-3 was the only USN aircraft where an NFO was in front of a set of controls, his time flying was counted by the FAA, at least the particular FSDO.
 
Here was the gouge for S-3 NFO's attempting to apply mil time. Get your commercial on your own, without claiming one hour of mil time. Then, throw all your training and COTAC (front seat) time in the SIC bucket on your 8610 when applying for your ATP. Then, submit via the San Diego FSDO. Don't get greedy and try to claim PIC, inviting scrutiny and making it tougher for the next guy. That was the formula that worked.

That said, I can't say the ATP helped my career much. I had 200 hours of Kingair PIC time when I got my ATP and that's all anybody cared about.

These days, an ATP is the magic ticket if you want to jump on the 121 roller coaster.
 
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I had all my ratings before UPT, logged everything except for T-6 solos as dual received. Got a BE-400 type added to my ATP for the T-1. Didn't squeeze blood out of a stone, but simple and easy.
 
I'm all for others giving advise on how they logged the time, but I would still go back to the FARs and log it the way they say to log it. Then keep a computer log to track the time for other entities.
Also be careful on what one FSFO will do verses what the reg says to do. The FAA has come back and revoked certificates or made pilots take 709 rides based upon what a FSDO safety inspector did that was not IAW the regs.
 
Soku39 said:
I had all my ratings before UPT, logged everything except for T-6 solos as dual received. Got a BE-400 type added to my ATP for the T-1. Didn't squeeze blood out of a stone, but simple and easy.
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Did you also get an L-382 type out of curiosity?

7500:

-How does one go about logging a multi fast mover (F18/F15)? If I recall they are 'center line thrust' restricted - so having a Commercial Multi previous to flying such aircraft without that restriction, would all time be logged as multi PIC in the eyes of the FAA without restriction? What about the airlines?

-Does anyone have experience with getting an RATP? For example if someone has 749 hours and on their first hour in a T6 at UPT/Primary, at 750TT (say XC, night, etc. is met) they become eligible for an RATP. After such is it a trip to the FSDO to get the Certificate all that is needed? And I suppose with the ATP written completed...then to remove the restriction at 1500, would a check ride be required?
 
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n57flyguy said:
-How does one go about logging a multi fast mover (F18/F15)? If I recall they are 'center line thrust' restricted - so having a Commercial Multi previous to flying such aircraft without that restriction, would all time be logged as multi PIC in the eyes of the FAA without restriction? What about the airlines? ...
Click to expand...

Multi time is multi time. And they're single seat, so if you're not the PIC, who would be?
 
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