SKW finally helps hold the line (pay package results)

Seggy said:
Exactly.

I have a feeling that management will make changes to the pay structure there because of their recruiting needs. First year folks will get a raise, while the folks that have been there will need to 'renegotiate' the pay package.



They have an impact on negotiations even though they aren't unionized. Management loves to show Skywest pay rate as being higher slightly than other regionals, but that doesn't paint the entire picture. Their costs are less because of their work rules, benefits etc.

That isn't helpful in negotiations.
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This.

The Horizin group just got threatened with concessions to "meet Skywest costs or else."

That said, I also believe that we need to do better within ALPA to stand as a group. I don't believe that this is the pilot shortage of epic proportions like some seem to think, but we aren't going to ever get as good a chance to try to price the regional market out of viability. But until everyone stands as one that won't happen.
 
99driver said:
I will argue that we are holding the line (if only now, not in the past) better than the unionized pilots who took the whipsaw bait (envoy, endeavor, trans).
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Oh really?

What should have those pilot groups done then? Go out of business? What about the Endeavor pilots who were in bankruptcy?
 
Screaming_Emu said:
That said, I also believe that we need to do better within ALPA to stand as a group.
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I wanted to peel this away from the other point you made that needed emphasis.

Over the past year, good things are happening within ALPA to help the FFDC Pilots advance their careers. I think it will continue.
 
Seggy said:
I wanted to peel this away from the other point you made that needed emphasis.

Over the past year, good things are happening within ALPA to help the FFDC Pilots advance their careers. I think it will continue.
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I have definitely noticed that, both on an MEC and national level.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Reminds me of a calculus teacher I had in college. Class average on the final exam was a 45. He didn't "believe" in curves. When the "problem" is that widespread maybe you're the •. :p
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Sounds like my kind of guy. :D

99driver said:
I will argue that we are holding the line (if only now, not in the past) better than the unionized pilots
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Seggy said:
Oh really?

What should have those pilot groups done then? Go out of business? What about the Endeavor pilots who were in bankruptcy?
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You are right, of course. I did not say they had a choice. I'm just defending what we did at SKW. This points to the need for what I have always felt would be best: non-factionalized regional union. Because one alpa carrier can whipsaw another, we need to come together and stand as one. SKW most of all, and there are a lot of guys here working for that.
 
99driver said:
You are right, of course. I did not say they had a choice. I'm just defending what we did at SKW. This points to the need for what I have always felt would be best: non-factionalized regional union. Because one alpa carrier can whipsaw another, we need to come together and stand as one. SKW most of all, and there are a lot of guys here working for that.
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That's a nice thought in theory, but it doesn't work in practice, at least not in a deregulated industry without a single seniority list.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's a nice thought in theory, but it doesn't work in practice, at least not in a deregulated industry without a single seniority list.
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So just accept the whipsaw? I really do not have any idea what the best approach is. But the status quo sucks.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
Can't ALPA national take a more leadership assistance to prevent the regional whipsaw between multiple ALPA representations?
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While whipsawing was attempted did it happen?

Look at what happened at PSA. Yes they took a 'pay cut' on paper, but did they really as their work rules are extremely lucrative. Envoy on the other hand kept saying no and it looks like they lost money in their eventual deal.

What happened at ALPA (IMHO) was a lack of communication between the groups. That has been fixed.

GoJet/TSA with Compass that is a whipsaw.

Skywest/ASA/XJT can turn into one as well.
 
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ComplexHiAv8r said:
Can't ALPA national take a more leadership assistance to prevent the regional whipsaw between multiple ALPA representations?
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You have to remember that "stopping the whipsaw" involves people losing their jobs. Who is to decide who loses their jobs and who gets to keep theirs? Who is to decide where the line is drawn? Is some mainline guy in the top job in the union going to decide that an Envoy pilot of 30 years is going to be out on the street in the name of "holding the line?" Is a group of pilots from the Envoy pilot's competitors going to decide so? How would this "leadership" take shape?

It's a much more complex subject than people want to accept. Too many people have this crazy fantasy in their head that Charlie used to espouse around here about "holding the line" and management caving. That's not reality, because this is a competitive business environment. Such a mentality worked under a regulated environment, but it doesn't work under deregulation when normal economic forces are at play.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
The Horizon group just got threatened with concessions to "meet Skywest costs or else."

That said, I also believe that we need to do better within ALPA to stand as a group. I don't believe that this is the pilot shortage of epic proportions like some seem to think, but we aren't going to ever get as good a chance to try to price the regional market out of viability. But until everyone stands as one that won't happen.
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As a Horizon guy.... we could agree to fly for free and we still wouldn't meet SkyWest on costs. It's actually not about pay/work rules/benefits... it's about size. Unit costs decrease as size increases. Asking a 600-pilot airline to match costs with a 3,000+ pilot airline is just silliness. Alaska Air Group management is just playing games to see how much they can get from us. They don't expect cost matching, but they'll gladly take all that we'll give while they try to scare us with the BS "match costs" line.
Seggy said:
Quoted for emphasis.
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I'm very much a union supporter, but that's not at all apples-to-apples.
 
pete2800 said:
As a Horizon guy.... we could agree to fly for free and we still wouldn't meet SkyWest on costs. It's actually not about pay/work rules/benefits... it's about size. Unit costs decrease as size increases. Asking a 600-pilot airline to match costs with a 3,000+ pilot airline is just silliness. Alaska Air Group management is just playing games to see how much they can get from us. They don't expect cost matching, but they'll gladly take all that we'll give while they try to scare us with the BS "match costs" line.

I'm very much a union supporter, but that's not at all apples-to-apples.
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If it's all about the economy of scale argument then why doesn't Skywest want to merger Skywest/ASA/XJT? What about TSA/Compass and that other airline?

You do have a point to a certain extent, but there is more besides the economies of scale.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
They did poll us, the TA didn't reflect anything we wanted.
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Out of curiosity, did they release the polling data after the fact? Because most polling data I've seen (that was never released) at both places I've worked doesn't show what most pilots think it would show. It's possible that the TA did reflect the polling data (I know you guys had a pretty bad TA offered, but the areas may have matched up) but outside the herd data, nobody thought that's what "everybody" wanted.
 
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