ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
My friend wrote this and I thought it fit perfectly:
Plane Crash in W. Alaska, 11 Reported Aboard
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
z987k
Well-Known Member
So to re-open this one, the NTSB released some documents.
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/h...dRow=15&StartRow=1&order=1&sort=0&TXTSEARCHT=
Still no probable cause.
ADN did a pretty good TL;DR - http://www.adn.com/article/20150423...-loose-operations-factor-fatal-st-marys-plane
Also of note is the probable cause is out for Era's 1900 Badami Crash 7 days prior to this incident. Seems to be a common thread - the bush pilot syndrome is institutionally ingrained. I would have fined them into oblivion after they "forgot" to remove the FDR/CVR and taped over everything.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=ANC14LA007&rpt=fi
http://www.adn.com/article/20150312/ntsb-pilot-company-faa-fault-2013-north-slope-plane-crash
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/h...dRow=15&StartRow=1&order=1&sort=0&TXTSEARCHT=
Still no probable cause.
ADN did a pretty good TL;DR - http://www.adn.com/article/20150423...-loose-operations-factor-fatal-st-marys-plane
Also of note is the probable cause is out for Era's 1900 Badami Crash 7 days prior to this incident. Seems to be a common thread - the bush pilot syndrome is institutionally ingrained. I would have fined them into oblivion after they "forgot" to remove the FDR/CVR and taped over everything.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=ANC14LA007&rpt=fi
http://www.adn.com/article/20150312/ntsb-pilot-company-faa-fault-2013-north-slope-plane-crash
alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
Ignoring how late the NTSB and ADN were to the party and that the koolaid hasn't worn off yet, they make it sound like our Ops Control, OC, hasn't really kicked in yet or is ineffectual. The Risk Assessment is in place and working quite well. As stated in the article there are 4 levels. Levels 1-2 are the most benign, meaning decent wx and no mx issues. Level 3 typically happens because of wx, once the Risk Assessment reaches this level either the CP or DO must be involved to give the green light or pull the plug on the flight. Our vfr wx mins are 600' and 2sm and the pilot must meat certain experience requirements. Our wind limits are 40kts right now. Flights with a Risk Assement Leve 4 are not dispatched and are either delayed or cancelled. For any flight BOTH the pilot AND the Dispatcher must green light, if either say no then it's a no go. The Ops Control Center is in Palmer and has nothing to do with reservations or any revenue decisions. In initial ground the CP made it very clear that there would be no repercussions for declining a flight if the pilot is feeling uncomfortable and there would be no "pilot shopping." I don't know what Hageland was like before I came here, but I feel very safe here. In one week on the job I trippled the amount of actual IFR time I had logged from IR and comm training. We do a lot of IFR in the Caravan.
z987k
Well-Known Member
That's good to hear, but sorry VFR at 600-2 is stupid. I know it's legal. It's stupid. Especially with the flat light.
But hey, I pretty much don't fly VFR. Mostly because I don't like crashing airplanes, and I have a responsibility to my passengers not to. Even on a clear day. I take the approach and inconvenience everyone an extra 26 seconds as well.
Also, this is pretty normal for the NTSB timeline wise. It takes forever and they are understaffed as it is. Of note is how complicate the FAA has been in these crashes.
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alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
Yes, but this was (is?) endemic of all the air taxis in "the bush", not just Haggey. Like I said, at least in Barrow if it's remotey ifr we just file, all of the villages have great RNAV approaches and the MEAs are fairly low.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Capt. Chaos
Well-Known Member
Ever other 135 commuter wheel operator in Southeast is running a IFR program but you guys. @Roger Roger company has even promised IFR service to PEC, ELV, AGN, and TKE. It was in their EAS filing and I would hate to think they were stretching facts and promises.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Hey, IFR does work for their operation at times. For most of their flying, though, they're pushing their pilots out the door VFR into the same VFR we're flying in (and sometimes worse, though they do seem to shut down earlier on squirrelly wind days).
Also, I'm legitimately confused by the pissing contest. My company has its issues, as everyone knows, but so do the other operators. I don't get my fun ragging on brand X, even though they push their pilots out into real crap sometimes. A brand that I've had passengers confide in me that they don't fly with because they see the pilots fly VFR into IMC too routinely, and are more comfortable flying with us despite our problems... or brand Y, who basically flies bootleg IFR without even pretending not to.
Is there one single operator that is actually legitimately capable of looking down their nose at another here? Is that even a good idea? I can understand management talking a big game, but aren't we pilots all out in this stuff together at the end of the day, just trying to safely move our stuff and not hit anything solid?
Before you talk to me like a child out of line, I get that I've only been flying up here for a year and change. I know there's history, I know there have been fatals and mechanicals, that there's bad blood between people, and so forth and so on. But I also know that my pilot group respects the other pilots at the other operators, and we all chip in for each other, and we sure as heck have their backs if they need it. We'll move mountains to get their non-revs on, help out if we can, etc. But I can't help but feel that there's a helluva lot of attitude on the other end of that.
Why? What am I missing here?
-Fox
NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
I'm curious if you guys have developed preferred low-VFR routing and programmed them in the GPS. At NJC you showed me your video of flying the 207 in low VFR around the islands around Juneau, saying you knew that you could fly to x island, and then to x island, and so on.
In the military we'll create our own "IFR corridors" by just drawing a route on a chart, finding the lowest acceptable altitude, and flying that course. It gets you much lower than the MVA, often between mountains, but still perfectly safe with accurate course guidance (aka GPS).
At least then the company could say "Ok, it's 600/2, so you'll fly the Winger1 arrival, which has a 400ft minimum altitude and 3-mile corridor." Reduce cockpit workload and take the "you'd just have to know the terrain" factor out of it.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
This is what guys who want to survive long term do if they're flying properly equipped airplanes.
Be on a pre-defined route at a pre-defined altitude. That's the most important thing you can do to stay alive in that kind of flying. Look outside just to make sure you're still legal on these routes, but then you know that if you get "trapped by the weather" you can stay on your route and not die. There are a lot of guys that like to fly around on the moving map. Meh. I flew in SE for over a year, and I've put around 5,000hrs around the rest of the state of Alaska, and if there's only one thing I've learned, it's that you should know the terrain and be ready to climb if you physically can. Remember, no one ever got killed simply because they went into a cloud. It may make me a pariah to say it, but the truth is that it is much safer be illegal at 1500' AGL on a route that takes you towards someplace safe than running around anywhere from 0 to 500' desperately trying to maintain VFR when the weather has come down on you faster than anticipated.
It's pretty hard to get killed if you have a pre-planned route that you know isn't going to hit anything. In my personal opinion, not creating low-altitude IFR infrastructure and giving the 207 and Cherokee pilots the equipment to actually fly a legit approach is a significant contributor to CFIT in the state.
Capt. Chaos
Well-Known Member
Easy there tiger. No one is knocking your company. The first part of my post was more point out that IFR has worked it's way into SE and is here to stay. It's not longer a out west thing. And FYI, we have provided support to your company to help get their IFR program going again but there is a road block with your caravans your company doesn't want to to spend money on to get around it.
The second part was poke at the other guys for promising IFR service in their EAS filing when they know good and well it will never happen.
Also for someone who doesn't like comparing companies you seemed to have no problem making claims that brand x and y are out violating the rules . As for brand Y, they have the best safety record there, so they must be doing something right.
And if I had a problem with your company I sure wouldn't have bought tickets for my family on you guys last week.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
If you're looking outside in 600-2 (other than to make sure you're still legal) you're doing it wrong.
It's not that bad in a sled, or something that lives at around 120kts. That's just less than 2 minutes (after you convert to NM), not too bad. At Caravan, Navajo, and 1900 speeds it's less fun.