Why did you go 135 to 121 or the other way around?

Box hauler

Well-Known Member
I see many people on here have gone 135/91 to a 121 and love it but at the same time many people who went 121 to 135/91 and are very happy. As someone who has only done 135 freight and EMS I am just trying to build a picture of why people seem to enjoy one over the other. Thanks for sharing
 
What they have to offer for a person is very different. In 91/135 you can find jobs where you are on call 24/7 but barely work. There are seriously people that have a realistic goal of not flying more then 10,000 hours in their career in 91 and 135. The problem is that job security doesn't really exist. There are typically no seniority systems or unions and as a result the security of one's job or ability to advance/upgrade is always unpredictable.

Job security in 121 does exist, IMO, to a greater extent than in 135 and 91. From what I gathered from my time in 135 is that a job change and/or moving would occur at least once every 2-3 years for most guys. Yes 121s do fail but most of the large 121s will be protected by the government at this point because their failure would make a major impact on the US economy.

A management change can bring about big changes in 91 and 135 thus creating a massive swing in QOL and morale. In 121 a management change will bring operational changes but the union contracts really do reduce the damage management can do outside of bankruptcy.

121 offers predictability. I know my seniority and as a result have an idea what my schedules will be like as a result. I also know my full schedule for the next month and can plan accordingly rather than make plans hoping I don't get called into work. No one can change my schedule on the fly unless a specific set of circumstances occur.

Schedules include way more hard days off in 121. I get 12 days minimum as a line holder every month. It is common for 135s to only get 4 hard days off and they only exist because the regulations require them to exist. Some 91 outfits fly constantly and hard days off do not exist at all.

In 135 and 91 everyone seems to know everyone else at their job. This can be great if you like most of the people you fly with but sometimes it is nice to get lost in a sea of faces. Being able to successfully dodge a CA you absolutely can't stand is great for your morale not to mention CRM.

The downside to 121 flying is that you will work a lot early on. Low seniority people get the trash and as a result work a ton. I'm currently flying more than 800 hours a year. 91 and 135 people are considered to have a flown a lot after 300 hours.


In the end for me a lot of stress is gone that I had when flying cargo. A small mistake no longer means management will make use of their guillotine. My schedule stays intact. The safety culture is leaps and bounds better. I have a fatigue program. I have better regulations to work under (117 is awesome). I'm able to jumpseat on almost every other 121 carrier along with normal flight benefits so I can see family in other states.

Unless a really good 91 or 135 job lands in my lap I don't see myself trying to go that route again.
 
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Maurus hit the nail on the head.
It's not that one is better than the other, but that one is better suited to a person than the other. My epiphany was while flying 135 and sitting around FBOs. I remember I saw one part 91 crew sitting in the FBO at Thomasville, Ga for four days just in case the airplane owner decided it was time to leave. Umm... no thank you. I've seen pilots with unbelievable part 91 gigs, but then the owner died or the family business went under and the pilot was thrown to the curb.
 
Short call reserve at most airlines goes very, very junior. I had been on line less than a month and I could get any RAP I wanted (14 hour call out period). I purposely bid the 7pm to 9am RAPs because I can't stand being on the hook and that way I could sleep through most of it. That's essentially the 91/135 life.

That being said, if you want to have a 91/135 schedule, go to an airline that has overnight RAPs. You generally work about 20 hours a month, if that. Living in base, it can be a really nice lifestyle. Since you have to live in base for the 91/135 gig, it's an apples to apples comparison.

All the pluses of the 91/135 world, with very little of the downsides with that.

The upside with an airline is you can get away from that if you want to. I've got 18 days off this month, 18 the next, and go to some nice cities with an actual schedule since I commute. I've been here a year.
 
The biggest plus with 91/135 is the pay, and that it generally starts off a lot higher. There are some really cush 91 gigs out there, like my buddy who makes $180k flying for an extremely stable corp dept in the NE.

But those gigs are very few and far between. IMO it's harder to land a 91 gig over $100k than a major airline gig. You'll make six figures at a commuter but it'll take a couple years, and an upgrade.
 
Medevac is pretty great - I've never flown 121, but I have serious doubts if I desire to do anything other than medevac in my career because of how great it is. If there was a 121 where I could conceivably be home every night and make six figures with a real retirement plan I might consider it (that sounds like fantasy) - but the steps I'd have to take backward at this point to get there would cause some ridiculous stress in my life that I can't abide with young children. Maybe in 5 to 10 years time I could be in a position where I could go for it, but I doubt it. At this point, the only sort of thing that could realistically be any better than what I do is one of those magical corporate dream jobs where you get paid a lot and have a predictable schedule, but I don't know of many of those - and without jet time or connections I doubt I'd be the type of guy they'd select for that sort of thing. In short, for the first time in my career, I don't see the next best thing out on the horizon to do. There's lots of stuff out there that could be great, but almost everything I can think of would require a significant reduction in quality of life, pay, or both - I can't do that with a family.

I've tossed around the idea of going to one of the fractionals or charter from time to time (I have a few buddies who do that sort of thing) - but truth be told, how much time would I spend away from my family doing that? You don't get any of that time back, ever. At the end of your life, God doesn't add up all of your Hilton Rewards points, your family doesn't care about your double platinum status, and your seniority number doesn't change the fact that you mortgaged the wonder years for wealth in your golden years. Is this the path I thought I would be going down over a decade ago? Hell no. But in the intervening years, I have seen myself and others sacrifice relationships, health, time, money, and our hearts to before the alter of aviation and I've come to realize I can't do that in the same way. Aviation will always be about sacrifice; the very nature of airplanes is tradeoffs - performance vs payload, cruise speed vs STOL, etc. The sacrifices I want to make are for my family, and if I have to sacrifice cool/big airplanes to do it - then so be it. I want to be remembered as a good father more than I want to be remembered as a good pilot.

At this stage in my life, I can only see a couple of directions I go from here. One, I work my way up in the institution here, come up with a side business for a more secure retirement plan, try to get into our jets eventually and retire as a jet captain flying medevac or stay in the King Air and live someplace nice. Two, I get picked up by some corporate thing I can't refuse and go do that until I can retire - of course it must have a schedule that is comparable to this (unlikely I suspect). Three, there's an airline out there where I could be home nightly and make six figures out of the gate or within a couple years (nearly impossible I imagine). But until my youngest is in highschool, I think I can pretty much rule 121 out entirely, and that's at least 12 years away - probably longer.

The thing that makes this kind of job so great is that I am afforded the opportunity to pursue other passions in my life that I otherwise would not be able to explore. I'm going back to school in the fall - it was going to be something technical starting in the summer, but my wife talked me into pursuing a passion of mine and I'm going to go for a second bachelors degree, then probably onto a masters in the subject. I play nearly every other day at the beach with my kids. We make enough to be comfortable - we're not rich, but we're comfortable and can save money. On call, I spend my day reading, hanging out with my family, playing music, or surfing the internet. I essentially want for nothing. I'm planning on starting my own business within the next couple of years that I can run on the side that won't interfere with my medevac job and can build my nest egg. I doubt I could do that and raise a family from the right seat of a 121 jet. I doubt I could do that flying for a fractional, a corporate outfit, or for a charter company. Here the sky is the limit, and I don't have to be the guy whose only human interaction consists of work, work, work, work, contract, work, work, work, work, ILS to mins, work, work, work, work... (Though truth be told, around my flying buddies that tends to be the way I am).

My only legitimate concern with staying in the world of 135 for a career is that retirement is hard to come by. Nearly every little company has a retirement, but the truth is that wages and retirements aren't as good as at the "airlines." The majors are matching your 401k at 12% - that doesn't happen in 135. Wages at a place with a negotiated contract typically match inflation and then some - that doesn't always happen in 135 (though there are lots of places that do). As a result, 135 (and I suspect 91 too) requires you to have a backup plan all the time and to be a little self reliant when it comes to your long term future. This is why I suspect I'll have to come up with a side business to build my nest egg. That said, with medevac it's a lot easier to devote time to your nest egg than if you have a full time flying job where you're frequently gone. We have pilots here who sell property, we have pilots here who consult, we have pilots here who run construction companies... the list is endless. I'll probably try to do some technical writing or consult for some friends, but I haven't thought that far ahead yet - right now, I'm just enjoying having a better paycheck and quality of life than I get could anywhere else I'm qualified to go, and living in paradise.

EDIT who's = whose
 
Different strokes for different folks, I went 135-121-now back to 135. They each have their own pros/cons. However many people in each realm are pretty insulated to what the others average day is. I think it's also different when comparing regional 121-135 and mainline 121-135. I think there a lot of items hard to beat at a mainline 121 with seniority.
 
Different strokes for different folks, I went 135-121-now back to 135. They each have their own pros/cons. However many people in each realm are pretty insulated to what the others average day is. I think it's also different when comparing regional 121-135 and mainline 121-135. I think there a lot of items hard to beat at a mainline 121 with seniority.
 
The biggest plus with 91/135 is the pay, and that it generally starts off a lot higher. There are some really cush 91 gigs out there, like my buddy who makes $180k flying for an extremely stable corp dept in the NE.

But those gigs are very few and far between. IMO it's harder to land a 91 gig over $100k than a major airline gig. You'll make six figures at a commuter but it'll take a couple years, and an upgrade.

Bankruptcy, furloughs, death, and taxes seem inevitable... I'm hoping the 121 furloughs or mergers do less damage to total income/QOL than would the 91/135 bankruptcies or management changes.
 
I started out in 121, got furloughed and went to 135 because it was the only place hiring at the time. I moved from UPS freight to FedEx freight because of QoL and being home more. Right now I am in EMS, making about what a 5-6 year CRJ captain would make at a good regional airline but I am home every night because I live in base and really enjoy the 7 days off I get twice a month.
 
Short call reserve at most airlines goes very, very junior. I had been on line less than a month and I could get any RAP I wanted (14 hour call out period). I purposely bid the 7pm to 9am RAPs because I can't stand being on the hook and that way I could sleep through most of it. That's essentially the 91/135 life.

That being said, if you want to have a 91/135 schedule, go to an airline that has overnight RAPs. You generally work about 20 hours a month, if that. Living in base, it can be a really nice lifestyle. Since you have to live in base for the 91/135 gig, it's an apples to apples comparison.

All the pluses of the 91/135 world, with very little of the downsides with that.

The upside with an airline is you can get away from that if you want to. I've got 18 days off this month, 18 the next, and go to some nice cities with an actual schedule since I commute. I've been here a year.
Will you bid for me next month then?
 
Im currently 91/135 and had 2, 135 single pilot cargo gigs before this currently. When I was flight instructing I just wanted to get out so I took the first job that came my way. Which led to another single pilot cargo job in FedEx Caravans (which is actually a pretty nice job for someone that doesn't want to do a lot) Now Jet Charter. I have close to no schedule. and the flying comes and goes. I could be gone for 2 weeks of hopping around the country, to a week sitting in the Bahamas, or at home with nothing to do for a week (rare, but does happen) I also do a lot of day trips which always push the max duty day and sometimes go over then I'm stuck somewhere for the night and usually with no clothes since it was supposed to be a day trip. Add in an hour and 20 min drive to work each way you have the makings for a very very long day.

I do love my job the 135/91 stuff is nice. However I'm topped out at pay with up to a possible 3% yearly raise. Its good money for now, but long term I could make more than a million+ over my career at an airline (majors) My next move will most likely be to 121 in a few years. I fly about 350 hours a year and would actually like to fly more. There appears to be more security on the 121 side once you get a few years in. And something resembling a schedule (even if it changes) would be appealing to me.
 
What's the issue with CLT? I live in Raleigh but commute to PHL because I'd be deep down in the short call list in CLT, way too senior there. A buddy was hired in Jan 2013, he's lucky he can get a secondary there.
 
What's the issue with CLT? I live in Raleigh but commute to PHL because I'd be deep down in the short call list in CLT, way too senior there. A buddy was hired in Jan 2013, he's lucky he can get a secondary there.
I'm summer of 2013. I can hold a decent primary in PHL vs going back and forth between a crappy secondary or long call (who knows if I can hold long call with the reduction now) in CLT
 
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