PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Meh. I didn't feel like looking it up. I knew it wasn't quite right. Since you knew what I was talking about, obviously I got my point across.
ALPA: It's Time for Regionals To Raise Pay
- Thread starter pianokeys
- Start date
Meh. I didn't feel like looking it up. I knew it wasn't quite right. Since you knew what I was talking about, obviously I got my point across.
milleR
Well-Known Member
This pretty much sums up every Internet post, ever.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
It's a freaking movie quote, so it doesn't really fall into the "important to get it right" category.
F
Flying Saluki
Guest
I think it may be time for a paradigm shift; to start talking about how pilots are paid rather than how much pilots are paid.
As you know, pilots have historically been paid by the flight hour, which means that a pilot earns one hour of pay for every 3 or 4 hours of time on duty or away from base. As a result, unions have negotiated trip and duty rigs, which theoretically increase pilot pay by forcing increased productivity. They have also negotiated numerous “soft time” provisions for the purpose of increasing take home pay. And despite all that, pilots are still generally unhappy with what they’re paid.
So let us consider alternatives: What if, instead of paying pilots by the flight hour, they were paid by the duty hour? You go on the clock at your report time, and you go off the clock at release time. What would that do for pilot pay?
Here’s another idea. What if flight pay included the pre- and post- flight duties that go along with the job, such that a pilot starts getting paid, say, 30 minutes prior to block out and stops 15 minutes after block in. What would that do?
This is not a “that won’t work” or “that won’t happen” discussion. Assume it’s already happened. What would the landscape look like?
As you know, pilots have historically been paid by the flight hour, which means that a pilot earns one hour of pay for every 3 or 4 hours of time on duty or away from base. As a result, unions have negotiated trip and duty rigs, which theoretically increase pilot pay by forcing increased productivity. They have also negotiated numerous “soft time” provisions for the purpose of increasing take home pay. And despite all that, pilots are still generally unhappy with what they’re paid.
So let us consider alternatives: What if, instead of paying pilots by the flight hour, they were paid by the duty hour? You go on the clock at your report time, and you go off the clock at release time. What would that do for pilot pay?
Here’s another idea. What if flight pay included the pre- and post- flight duties that go along with the job, such that a pilot starts getting paid, say, 30 minutes prior to block out and stops 15 minutes after block in. What would that do?
This is not a “that won’t work” or “that won’t happen” discussion. Assume it’s already happened. What would the landscape look like?
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
I like this guys idea:
"My opinion...
1) Eliminate longevity for pay purposes. Equipment/seat pay would be a fixed figure (subject to COLA raises). This would allow airlines to attract and retain entry-level talent, and remove most of the incentive to destroy a high-longevity airline and replace it with a low-longevity startup.
Longevity would still apply for traditional things like vacation accrual, 401k vesting, etc. so you do get rewarded for sticking around.
Seniority would still of course apply for schedules, vacation bidding, equipment/seat/domicile bidding.
2) A step further...eliminate block pay and replace with duty pay (like any other industry). Duty pay would be lower than current block pay, based on a formula like this...
Assume a five-hour block is minimum desired productivity, and say three legs is average.
Old rate: $100/block hour
New rate: 5 hours x $100 = $500 for the day.
Now we add up the non-flight duty for three reasonably efficient legs:
Report - block out: 45m
2nd Turn: 30m
3nd Turn 30m
Block in- duty off: 15m
Total = 2 hours
Block + non-flight duty = 7 hours. Since we got paid $500 for that reasonably efficient 7 hour duty day, our new duty rate would be $72/duty hour.
Ramifications:
- Company has incentive to schedule efficiently...non-productive duty time is no longer free to the company.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time.
- Super senior folks no longer enjoy windfall combinations of high pay combined with highly efficient trips while junior folks suck up lengthy unpaid sits combined with low pay and multiple legs.
- Seniority still buys many perks...you can bid long duty days to get pay more if you want, and still get weekends holidays off as always.
- We get paid for IROPS.
- Takes some of the sting out of switching airlines, but that shouldn't really be necessary since there would be little incentive to shuffle flying around."
Seems like a good start.
"My opinion...
1) Eliminate longevity for pay purposes. Equipment/seat pay would be a fixed figure (subject to COLA raises). This would allow airlines to attract and retain entry-level talent, and remove most of the incentive to destroy a high-longevity airline and replace it with a low-longevity startup.
Longevity would still apply for traditional things like vacation accrual, 401k vesting, etc. so you do get rewarded for sticking around.
Seniority would still of course apply for schedules, vacation bidding, equipment/seat/domicile bidding.
2) A step further...eliminate block pay and replace with duty pay (like any other industry). Duty pay would be lower than current block pay, based on a formula like this...
Assume a five-hour block is minimum desired productivity, and say three legs is average.
Old rate: $100/block hour
New rate: 5 hours x $100 = $500 for the day.
Now we add up the non-flight duty for three reasonably efficient legs:
Report - block out: 45m
2nd Turn: 30m
3nd Turn 30m
Block in- duty off: 15m
Total = 2 hours
Block + non-flight duty = 7 hours. Since we got paid $500 for that reasonably efficient 7 hour duty day, our new duty rate would be $72/duty hour.
Ramifications:
- Company has incentive to schedule efficiently...non-productive duty time is no longer free to the company.
- If company can't schedule efficiently we get paid for our time.
- Super senior folks no longer enjoy windfall combinations of high pay combined with highly efficient trips while junior folks suck up lengthy unpaid sits combined with low pay and multiple legs.
- Seniority still buys many perks...you can bid long duty days to get pay more if you want, and still get weekends holidays off as always.
- We get paid for IROPS.
- Takes some of the sting out of switching airlines, but that shouldn't really be necessary since there would be little incentive to shuffle flying around."
Seems like a good start.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The landscape would look no different. Pilots would have the same W2s. The costing would just be done using these different parameters when bargaining.
The thing that needs to be figured out regarding regionals, is are they a career place, or are they a touch-and-go. Since most people see them as the latter, and it appears management does too, then longevity or otherwise keeping people around, won't matter. And with their fixed costs, trying to raise pay in one area would have to just be taken from another, the whole rob peter/pay paul thing.
Regionals are what they are. Either don't work for one, or go to one knowing full well what they are and what you're getting into, and try to get out as quickly as possible. Otherwise it appears that the sport bitching regarding regionals and everything about them, is nothing more than just that and won't amount to anything more than just that. Rightly or wrongly.
Regionals are what they are. Either don't work for one, or go to one knowing full well what they are and what you're getting into, and try to get out as quickly as possible. Otherwise it appears that the sport bitching regarding regionals and everything about them, is nothing more than just that and won't amount to anything more than just that. Rightly or wrongly.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
Which is precisely why I don't understand people who go to a "good regional" knowing they will sit in the right seat for 5 to 8 years. Defeats the purpose of a regional and really puts a damper on overall career earnings. And I get that not everyone plans that, but still... If thigs aren't working out, move on to the next one.
I can see working to improve things like QOL and work rules and the like. Those appear to be workable items. But with their fixed costs structure, pay just doesn't seem like something that can be tweaked too much, without it costing somewhere else.
pete2800
'Member?
I went to a "good regional" three years ago. At the time, it was one of very few regionals that were actually hiring. SkyWest, ExpressJet, and Eagle were all doing limited hiring. Lakes wouldn't stop emailing me, but I wasn't about to accept that offer. Horizon called me. If hired, I could be based at home and have the best pay rate in the industry. The upgrade time was 12 years, and with no upgrades happening, it was rising. I took the job, resigning myself to the idea that if I stayed at Horizon long enough to upgrade, I'd have made a serious career mistake.
Fast forward a little, and it's amazing how quickly things change. I'm 30 numbers from upgrade, and the rate of closure is about 8 per month. I've worked here 3 years and 5 months. A friend of mine who was hired 11 months ago is over halfway to upgrade. We didn't even experience any real growth in order to see that upgrade time drop. 4 new airplanes were purchased, and 2 older airplanes were scrapped. The seniority list has grown by maybe 20 people, total.
Here's the thing that pilots need to realize: The long upgrade times at some regionals were mostly due to the decade of stagnation that the industry experienced. With the consistent industry-wide movement we're seeing, and will continue to see due to retirements, EVERY regional is going to have a quick upgrade time. Maybe not all under one year, but if Horizon's has gone from almost 13 to under 4 and is still dropping.... then everywhere else is likely going to do something similar. Overlooking pay and benefits while chasing the upgrade is something that just isn't necessary. Pick a place that pays relatively well, and where you might not have to commute. The upgrade will come to you. Things are different now than they have been in years past. If I was looking for a regional job right now, the upgrade time is something I wouldn't even consider.
This is part of why they can keep pay where it is. Because of this mentality. We need to rid ourselves of this king of attitude if we want to see change.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
People have been saying that since long before I was first a regional pilot many moons ago. It isn't going to happen. Get over it.
Pilots want a fast upgrade to pursue other endeavors. Some get stuck.
Regionals want cheap pilots and RFP awards. Some go out of business.
The public doesn't give a poop… They multiply.
Exactly why we are today where we are. But it's a lot better than it used to be. People that complain about Mesa, albeit justifiably, have no idea what "Larry Risely Mesa" was like.
Regionals want cheap pilots and RFP awards. Some go out of business.
The public doesn't give a poop… They multiply.
Exactly why we are today where we are. But it's a lot better than it used to be. People that complain about Mesa, albeit justifiably, have no idea what "Larry Risely Mesa" was like.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
So far I have no complaints.
I knew all about the stories from the bad old days, but I haven't seen anything like that. The pay rate sucks, but I knew that going in. I got the base I wanted out of training. The training dept was staffed by a great bunch of people. Upgrade time is looking like 2.5 - 3 years (conservatively).
I didn't say it would change, but it needs to.
It really isn't until everyone's paycheck matches the words on the side of the plane.
Talk to a cable installer. They all say "Cox Communications" but there's a heavy chance it's subcontracted to "Billy Joe Bob's Feed, Seed and Cable Installer, LLC". Until he's a Cox employee, he has scarce leverage.
I disagree. If we all suck together (regionals), we could put a serious hurting on business. But like @ATN_Pilot says, that'll never happen.
I appreciate the sentiment, but that's just not going to happen.
If the regional pilots did all get together and try to shut it down, there'd be a new airline created in a week, shiny new jets and loads of resumes from pilots seeking fast upgrades and advancement. How many times have we seen this when even one pilot group decided to fight the man?
I'm not saying it's right, but subcontractors have very little leverage. Ask any Comair or Eagle pilot.
Larry Risely Mesa! Where he would pay money to have APUs removed from, or not installed into, Dash-8s, so they'd have to depend on ground power. As well as pay to remove semi-glass stuff to have round dials put in.
The airline may form in a week, but it would take months to spool it up for it's first flight, and years to get it going at full speed, for 900+ flights in a day, from just one carrier.