New FAR 117 rest rules should be revised.

ASpilot2be said:
Same here.
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I've actually been extended once, but then the three airplanes they tried to give us were all broken so they just canceled the flight anyway.

Like Todd said... if you are (or expect to become during the duration of the flight) fatigued, call out fatigued. The problems arise when people use a fatigue call to get out of flying they don't want to do. The science, although not covering 100% of scenarios, generally doesn't lie (which is way it is called science). Most of the time, when the FRMT or whomever reviews your fatigue call, if you were truly fatigued, the science will back you up and there shouldn't be any issue.
 
BobDDuck said:
I've actually been extended once, but then the three airplanes they tried to give us were all broken so they just canceled the flight anyway.

Like Todd said... if you are (or expect to become during the duration of the flight) fatigued, call out fatigued. The problems arise when people use a fatigue call to get out of flying they don't want to do. The science, although not covering 100% of scenarios, generally doesn't lie (which is way it is called science). Most of the time, when the FRMT or whomever reviews your fatigue call, if you were truly fatigued, the science will back you up and there shouldn't be any issue.
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Staffing issues are outside the FAA's purview as well.

Which is the real problem, down here, anyway.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Believe it or not, I'll actually defend SWA when it comes to fatigue. They have the industry-leading fatigue policy by far. Call in fatigued, it's not only no-fault, but they actually pay you for the fatigue call.

Again, this is a contract issue, because it's QOL related. Nothing in the science indicates that an 8 day stretch of flying with a day off in between is fatiguing as long as you've had the sleep opportunities that 117 provides. And in reality, SWA's schedules usually provide far more than the required 117 sleep opportunities, with the average overnight being somewhere around 15-16 hours. You're not fatigued at the end of those 8 days, you're just ready to go home. And that's why SWAPA needs to stop stroking their W2 and realize that their contract absolutely sucks when it comes to work rules. Especially since their W2s aren't even as hot as they think they are anymore.
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As Zap mentioned, there are a few gotchas with our fatigue policy but I will agree for the most part that it is fairly well run. I think many of the gotchas come from scheduling playing fast and loose with the contract and the feeling among schedulers that pilots are primadonnas who abuse sick and fatigue policies. Fortunately, in each instance that I have heard, the Chiefs have backed the pilots and all was well.
Last night a captain called in fatigued in Vegas. This started a chain of events that led to me getting rerouted into an extra leg that got me in two hours past my original block in time. Because this isn't a reserve trip for me, I get premium pay for the late legs and got moved up today. Had I been fatigued last night (it was questionable), I would have called in. By doing that though, I would have stranded some already late passengers and given up any premium that went with the reroute. I personally don't have a problem doing that, but you can see where the incentive lies.
I was legal with 121 because my start time was pretty late (4pm) yesterday. Nevermind that I did a central to west coast transition the day prior and had been up since 7:30. Had a I been a reserve, I would have been illegal (I got called to do the trip because a reserve was timing out). So 121, while well intentioned and overall good, is not going to determine whether you are fatigued or not. Only you can.
 
I guess that is my problem. The "science" we are all touting also says that human beings are poor judges of their own level of fatigue. If that is true, what mechanism exists to mitigate the risk that I might fail to recognize my own level of fatigue?

When I flew corporate we mirrored 121 rules but required a "fatigue worksheet" and approval of a VP or higher to continue past FOM limits. We should do better than some discount retailer.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I guess that is my problem. The "science" we are all touting also says that human beings are poor judges of their own level of fatigue. If that is true, what mechanism exists to mitigate the risk that I might fail to recognize my own level of fatigue?
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The standard FDP limits are what mitigate that risk. Extensions are the exception, not the norm. The norm is that the airline can only schedule to the regulatory FDP limits. That's plenty of mitigation.
 
dbrault17 said:
Well your coworker sitting next to you in the cockpit who may be observing your actions can call your fatigue for you. At least there's that.
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The appropriate way to do that is:

"Dude, you need to call in fatigued."

(At this point, most mature and responsible adults will likely agree with you.)

Not:

"Hi, flight operations manager on duty? This is Autothrust Blue, employee number (___), and I'm calling in on behalf of Captain (___), employee number (___), who is fatigued."
 
Autothrust Blue said:
The appropriate way to do that is:

"Dude, you need to call in fatigued."

(At this point, most mature and responsible adults will likely agree with you.)

Not:

"Hi, flight operations manager on duty? This is Autothrust Blue, employee number (___), and I'm calling in on behalf of Captain (___), employee number (___), who is fatigued."
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Dang! No wonder all the captains in my base hate me!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The standard FDP limits are what mitigate that risk. Extensions are the exception, not the norm. The norm is that the airline can only schedule to the regulatory FDP limits. That's plenty of mitigation.
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Ha ha. Good one. I asked a captain last month after the New Orleans slasher debacle (I was there) if he knew that by signing the release he was accepting the extension.
Blank look ensued.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I guess that is my problem. The "science" we are all touting also says that human beings are poor judges of their own level of fatigue. If that is true, what mechanism exists to mitigate the risk that I might fail to recognize my own level of fatigue?
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I am shocked that your current employer doesn't cover this.

A general 'rule of thumb' to use is that if you have been up 18 hours (after a good nights rest) there is a possibility that it can have the same effect on you if you have a BAC of 0.08%.

I would google search it for a lot more of that science than I care to post here, but in general it is a good rule of thumb...

Of course you can be fatigued being up much less than that as well.
 
Seggy said:
Yes there is.
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Are y'all's the same as ours? For instance, fly from CLT to LAX and leave about 9pm Monday , and Tuesday late fly back to CLT and get in around 6am.
My awarded line for February was 100% red eyes.
 
L-16B said:
Are y'all's the same as ours? For instance, fly from CLT to LAX and leave about 9pm Monday , and Tuesday late fly back to CLT and get in around 6am.
My awarded line for February was 100% red eyes.
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You better let me know when you're in town.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Maybe I am extremely privileged, but in however long Part 117 has been law, I've been extended a grand total of zero times.

We are much more likely to cancel/reroute around an extension than we are to actually extend here.
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You'd better knock on wood. I know people in your crew scheduling department. :)
 
I do fine with redeyes, I'm a zombie for a day when I get home, but I'm fine during the flight. Back to back red eyes are torture though.
 
L-16B said:
Are y'all's the same as ours? For instance, fly from CLT to LAX and leave about 9pm Monday , and Tuesday late fly back to CLT and get in around 6am.
My awarded line for February was 100% red eyes.
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No ours are done differently here than at your place. They can be anywhere in a pairing.
 
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