Airline Pilot Lifespan

ATN_Pilot said:
Oh, good grief, I used to hear this crap from the other CFIs when I was still instructing. When I checked out an airline guy, though, the only things I found were that they flared high and flew the approaches fast. Hardly "scary" or dangerous things. Just something that takes a little adjustment. The reality is that bad decision making is what gets people killed in airplanes most of the time, and that guy has decision making experience in spades while the CFI who's mocking his skills has barely any. It's silly for an experienced airline pilot to be required to do anything more than a quick checkout.
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Lolz. I'd say when more than one guy would have literally crashed the plane if I hadn't been in it that it takes more than a "quick checkout" if a guy hasn't flown GA since before he went into the military 30 years ago.
 
These rental requirements are a perfect example that shows, that even without needed user fees for GA, true GA is dead.
 
Seggy said:
These rental requirements are a perfect example that shows, that even without needed user fees for GA, true GA is dead.
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You obviously have not hung around any local airports in AUS. And you have stated you do not want to hang out in your off time at local airports or go GA flying. GA for you is dead and that is by choice. I've taken a few trips to local airports to check out different flight schools that offer rentals and based on what I've seen I wouldn't say GA is dead.

Besides, how can GA be dead in AUS when you guys have Mr. Aviation 101?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You obviously have not hung around any local airports in AUS. And you have stated you do not want to hang out in your off time at local airports or go GA flying. GA for you is dead and that is by choice. I've taken a few trips to local airports to check out different flight schools that offer rentals and based on what I've seen I wouldn't say GA is dead.

Besides, how can GA be dead in AUS when you guys have Mr. Aviation 101?
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I will continue to stick with the facts...

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/March/13/faa-forecast
 
My airplane brand new was $35,000 in 2015 dollars. Surprisingly it has not depreciated all that much over the last ~50 years. If 4 seat 150hp airplanes still cost $35k, GA would be booming. There'd be more airplanes in the air than we could handle.
 
Seggy said:
These rental requirements are a perfect example that shows, that even without needed user fees for GA, true GA is dead.
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I wouldn't go that far. Dead for middle class, maybe, but still firmly within the grasp of upper-middle class. It's not really that much more expensive a hobby than boating.
 
Seggy said:
I will continue to stick with the facts...

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/March/13/faa-forecast
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A decline in the piston fleet operation is not equate to GA being dead. Funny the FAA forecasts this for 20 yrs down the road, when the single biggest factor affecting GA piston aircraft is the ADS-B out mandate in which installation costs for many will ground planes for good when owners decide it's not worth adding the package when the airplane itself is worth 10k-30k (significant amount of GA single engine pistons).
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I wouldn't go that far. Dead for middle class, maybe, but still firmly within the grasp of upper-middle class. It's not really that much more expensive a hobby than boating.
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Even the middle class can afford a 20k luscombe if they want to.
 
z987k said:
Even the middle class can afford a 20k luscombe if they want to.
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If it was only as easy as writing a check for $20k. The problem is that your are buying a 40+ year old equipment that you have no real knowledge of how it was maintained. And the logbooks are only as honest as the keeper; that is, as detailed as the owner/mechanic wants it to be. Many things don't even make it into the logbook. Also, when you buy it, you have to reserve cash for the unexpected equipment failure and the dreaded annuals. As you know, annuals can be very unforgiven, so the true cost is rarely the $20K.
Unlike buying a brand new $20K car, it is fresh off the lot and you are the first owner. Even with the low end cars, there is manufacturers warranty for the break-in period, so an unexpected equipment failure will usually not cost you anything. If newer planes were cheaper and reasonable in price, many people will own including myself.
 
Vector said:
If it was only as easy as writing a check for $20k. The problem is that your are buying a 40+ year old equipment that you have no real knowledge of how it was maintained. And the logbooks are only as honest as the keeper; that is, as detailed as the owner/mechanic wants it to be. Many things don't even make it into the logbook. Also, when you buy it, you have to reserve cash for the unexpected equipment failure and the dreaded annuals. As you know, annuals can be very unforgiven, so the true cost is rarely the $20K.
Unlike buying a brand new $20K car, it is fresh off the lot and you are the first owner. Even with the low end cars, there is manufacturers warranty for the break-in period, so an unexpected equipment failure will usually not cost you anything. If newer planes were cheaper and reasonable in price, many people will own including myself.
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Oh, I'm aware, but the middle class can afford that if it's a priority. A VFR C172 off the line should only cost around 40k. With a warranty.
 
z987k said:
Oh, I'm aware, but the middle class can afford that if it's a priority. A VFR C172 off the line should only cost around 40k. With a warranty.
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That is on the low side. A brand new Lycoming is almost the price you quoted which is absolutely bizarre. These so called aircraft engines are in no way safer than automobile engines, use outdated technology and still cost twice as much. Flying is considered luxury and we are just paying the luxury tax.
 
z987k said:
Even the middle class can afford a 20k luscombe if they want to.
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As @Vector pointed out, it's a lot more complicated than that. As I've been researching which plane to buy, I've learned a lot about what the costs are for these planes besides just purchase price and fuel. For example, I'm looking at a Mooney M20C that is in excellent shape. It's going for $51k, which is a pretty decent price for a plane in such good condition with brand new interior and avionics. Know what the guy paid for the last annual? Ten thousand dollars. Now, to be fair, there was a lot of extra work that had to be done last year to fix some deferred maintenance issues. But I've found in my research that most Mooney owners end up paying a bill that big at least every few years. When it comes time for a factory overhaul of the engine (about every 2-3k hours), you're dropping $35k.

Even take a much more simple airplane like a common C172. Your annual is going to cost you about $1,500-$2,000 in most places in the country. Engine overhaul is going to cost you $25k every couple thousand hours. If you want hangar space you're paying $250/mo for shared space or $350-$500 for your own T-hangar. Tie-downs are cheap at $50-$100, but a lot of people who buy their own plane don't want it kept out in the elements. Then there's the insurance. It's cheaper for me because I've got an ATP and tons of complex time, but the average private pilot gets raped on insurance premiums. Expect $1,500 for a simple C172, and it goes on up into the stratosphere for more complex planes. And then some airplanes have ADs that have to be addressed periodically. I was looking at a Grumman Tiger, and if they still have the original prop on them, they have to be inspected every 100 hours. Etc.

Realistically, owning a simple airplane like a 172 is about a $10k proposition just to fly 100 hours per year (not including loan payments). It'll cost you about $4k just to sit on the ramp doing nothing. Granted, that is less expensive than renting, but it's still awfully pricey for a middle class guy making $50k before taxes.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
As @Vector pointed out, it's a lot more complicated than that. As I've been researching which plane to buy, I've learned a lot about what the costs are for these planes besides just purchase price and fuel. For example, I'm looking at a Mooney M20C that is in excellent shape. It's going for $51k, which is a pretty decent price for a plane in such good condition with brand new interior and avionics. Know what the guy paid for the last annual? Ten thousand dollars. Now, to be fair, there was a lot of extra work that had to be done last year to fix some deferred maintenance issues. But I've found in my research that most Mooney owners end up paying a bill that big at least every few years. When it comes time for a factory overhaul of the engine (about every 2-3k hours), you're dropping $35k.

Even take a much more simple airplane like a common C172. Your annual is going to cost you about $1,500-$2,000 in most places in the country. Engine overhaul is going to cost you $25k every couple thousand hours. If you want hangar space you're paying $250/mo for shared space or $350-$500 for your own T-hangar. Tie-downs are cheap at $50-$100, but a lot of people who buy their own plane don't want it kept out in the elements. Then there's the insurance. It's cheaper for me because I've got an ATP and tons of complex time, but the average private pilot gets raped on insurance premiums. Expect $1,500 for a simple C172, and it goes on up into the stratosphere for more complex planes. And then some airplanes have ADs that have to be addressed periodically. I was looking at a Grumman Tiger, and if they still have the original prop on them, they have to be inspected every 100 hours. Etc.

Realistically, owning a simple airplane like a 172 is about a $10k proposition just to fly 100 hours per year (not including loan payments). It'll cost you about $4k just to sit on the ramp doing nothing. Granted, that is less expensive than renting, but it's still awfully pricey for a middle class guy making $50k before taxes.
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Well I didn't say a M20 or even a 172. An O-320 or less fabric airplane is surprisingly cheap to own and maintain. A walk around is tantamount to an annual on such a simple machine. Hangaring is ludicrous at those prices and you can pick up a nice set of covers with spoilers for less than 1k. I'm not sure on insurance because I to have an ATP and a fair bit more time than the typical ppl, but for 26k worth of hull sitting, taxi or flight & 1 mil liability is $960/yr. And that's on the most commonly ground looped taildragger in existence. My monthly fixed costs before turning a prop are $120. Fuel, oil, engine reserve, prop reserve, airframe & avionics reserve runs about $60/hr. I'd expect something with an O-200 or smaller should cost a bit less. I don't think I'd want to afford it on 50k a year... but I could if that was a goal of mine.
 
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