New Airplane for ATN

Cav said:
I'm speaking more along the lines of twin v single engine. Given the choice between a twin and a Cirrus, I'd go Cirrus.
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That's what I thought at first. From a financial standpoint the single wins out every time. What I didn't understand, and this is a very individual thing, was the emotional component to having one vs two engines. For me, the extra operating expense of a twin is purchasing peace of mind and a higher margin of safety. But that valuation is going to vary from one person to the next and it will change with age and experience.
 
You want a single. You want it to go fast. Statistically speaking a light single is safer than a light twin. I would go with the single.

How much do you want to spend and how many people do you want to carry?
 
Cav said:
Honest question, do people really MAKE money in these arrangements or do they break even or come close enough thay they can justify ownership expense? I have no solid reason for feeling this way but I can think of a bunch of better ways to "make" money. It seems more about ownership justification than investment.
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You CAN make some pretty good money actually. I have owned lease back airplanes before and made some money. I also lost money on a PA-28R. I owned a 172M that made me probably about 20K clean over the course of a year.

If you get a good later model 172S, you can clean up at the right flight school. I wouldn't do it with a 70's model again because parts are becoming more expensive and harder to come by. Also, the airframes are very high time. I sold mine for what I paid for it because I sold in the right market. 172S models stay on the market for 24 hours usually so you have to really be ready to buy one.



Murdoughnut said:
Until some student flies into IMC, bury your plane three feet into the ground, and posthumously sues you. Happened to a guy I co-owned a plane with.
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That is what insurance is for. Also, you should LLC that airplane. Never have your personal finances attached to it. The can sue Goonie LLC all they want, but nothing is there to take.
 
Do like most people and buy the most expensive airplane you can afford and then maintain it horribly because you can't afford it!

Seriously, it's the secret to a long life!... no, wait... that other thing.
 
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drunkenbeagle said:
Having spent plenty of time away from the field with zero engines, I think a single is fine enroute. At a reasonable altitude, not over water, you will have plenty of options for landing.

Close to the airport, you have plenty of ways to kill yourself in a twin, and the engine failure is twice as likely.
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It's way easier for zero engine flight in a machine made for such. You know that.

And @ATN_Pilot pilot has more experience than the average little twin buyer. I'm sure he can manage driving it around on one once he gets a checkout and some single pilot time. We all know that engine only buys some time, but that opens way more options.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It doesn't make as much sense for someone who has thousands of hours of multi time and hundreds of V1 cuts practiced.
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Given my VERY limited experience (just started practicing V1 cuts in the sim), a engine failure in a jet with tail mounted engines is nothing like a critical engine failure in a Barron.

I would still recommend a 10 year old, Avidyne panel, Cirrus as the best value in the light airplane market. Cruise speed is about 165 on 13GPH, and the airplane is so simple to fly. The TKS ice system is not certified for known ice, but you don't need known ice in Georgia. The avionics are as good if not better than what you had in the 717.

A Barron will eat you alive when the first annual comes due.
 
I've seen personally reasons why I wouldn't put an aircraft I owned on any leaseback with a flight school. In the late 90s after I got my private I continued to rent from the flight school I trained with, one of the aircraft available belonged to Lorenzo Lamas, a very nice guy by the way, it was a brand new PA-28 with leather and A/C. Some of the other renters just didn't seem to respect it and while it didn't fall into disrepair it wasn't taken care of like it would've been had he not put it out for rental. Another example, a friend of mine bought a relatively low time C-150 to commute with, being an A/P also he basically restored it, including new windows, some new avionics, new interior and a new paint job including wheel pants. It turned out very nice. Then he finished his RV-8 and sold it to a friend of his that wanted to teach in it, last I heard the wheel pants aren't on and starting to look a little shabby, sad. As far as buying something that you might want to charter I've seen people spend millions on upgrading interiors and paint and having customers basically disrespect the airplane in ways that are almost inexplicable. If I ever buy an airplane I'd never try to offset the cost by renting it out, I also wouldn't buy an airplane I couldn't afford comfortably without doing so.
 
NO CIRRUS dont do it, my last 5 years 95% of the numb nuts that tryed to kill themselves on my freq were flying SR20/22s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its basically the V-Tailed Bo of the 2000s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
 
"If it flies, floats, or fornicates..." @ATN_Pilot

:)

My vote would be for a baron or a C310. Plenty of power, decent single engine performance, but won't break the band with operating costs. Why waste your time and money on a single when you're obviously qualified for a twin, right?
 
Cav said:
I'm speaking more along the lines of twin v single engine. Given the choice between a twin and a Cirrus, I'd go Cirrus.
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The parachute does help to alleviate some of the "single-engine heebie-jeebies", but it's not a 100 percent thing either. There have been several deployment failure incidents I can think of.

Even with the chute, my job still makes me a little uneasy when I have to cross the Appalachians at night and/or with low IMC everywhere within a 100+ mile radius.
 
Obviously there is some sort of budget, no?

The Cirrus is a really nice airplane IMHO. Lots of creature comforts that you're probably not gonna get on a 15-20 year old Baron etc. People have talked about the twin-engine stats but like you said you have plenty of experience with V1 cuts so I don't know that it would really be a concern for you. Given the mission profile though I don't see why you necessarily need to deal with a twin.

Now that the logical side is done talking... I've always loved the Cessna 441 Conquest II. Twin turbine, decent speed, range etc etc. It's a little bit of a cramped cabin but if needed you can fill it up and still take enough gas to get where you're going. I think I'm just partial because a guy at the FBO where I worked had one and after he did the wing spar, -10 engines, props, and glass panel I thought it was pretty much the coolest thing around. He has more money than he can shake a stick at though so he upgraded to the CJ3+ which I think is the biggest single pilot one you can get. He also keeps a CJ Mustang as a spare. Rough life.

I have no idea if the aircraft is on the market but it was N441PW. Beautiful bird.
 
surreal1221 said:
Seriously, we gonna be chatting tomorrow. And hell, I don't even know if this is something YOU want to do or just something JetCareers wants you to do. Lol
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I definitely plan to buy a plane. Just a matter of which one and how I structure it. This lease back and charter stuff is something I hadn't considered. Have to look into it more.
 
Cav said:
Honest question, do people really MAKE money in these arrangements or do they break even or come close enough thay they can justify ownership expense? I have no solid reason for feeling this way but I can think of a bunch of better ways to "make" money. It seems more about ownership justification than investment.
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Time is money. My time at home worth more. The cirrus allowed me to do work and sales in the same day leaving the next day home do well worth it to me. Company owned it, I just used it. 8)
 
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