Sad Realization

Inverted said:
I wish the OP would chime back in to elaborate more. My gut feeling is that he is the one of the guys who drank the company Kool-Aid. For some reason there are just too many guys at AMF with delusional expectations.
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I did think for a little while i was going be-99 training captain D-> SWA.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
If I don't have published numbers for it then I am a test pilot with regards to my plane. I would bet there are legal issues the FAA, Boeing, etc are trying to mitigate as much as possible..
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I think the rub here is people keep shouting you won't have the numbers. But what I hear bring said is why dissent the FAA give us numbers. If those numbers were published, which is what is bring said, there would be no issue here.
 
Dugie8 said:
Ok, I see what you are saying and to a point I agree. The point I think I'm not getting across very well is that, right now, we could do what you are suggesting but without a proven procedure on how to modulate brake inputs to remain within the limits of the brakes we are just spinning our wheels ( see what I did there).

I would WAG that any aborts above the max V1 of almost any relatively modern part 25 jet would quickly exceed the brakes ability to stop the aircraft without blowing the plugs, regardless of runway length. That isn't a part 25 thing, that is a mfgrs thing, ie BOEW vs payload payoff.


Now if there was a way to set the brakes to 25% and that would allow me to reject at 182 knots on a 10000 foot runway and my inputs were the same, I'm all for it.
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You're completely missing the point. Our speeds are already based of of weight. If we factored in one more bit of data(runway length), that is literally all that would change. Most part25 airplanes have a v1/vr that's do close, it wouldn't even matter. But I still see no reason to do it the way hacker is suggesting. Set V1 according to runway length. As far as brake energy is concerned, that's what testing an aircraft is for. The numbers that we would get, would obviously include that.
 
ppragman said:
And so I says to my self, if there's a programmed 2 second delay in accelerate stop data...then why does it truly matter... ;)
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I'm missing what you're saying. You're asking why does the v1 matter? If you're in a light Boeing or airbus and do max blast you're no where near BFL. in that case the v1 would havr some slop, is that was you're referring to?
 
jynxyjoe said:
I'm missing what you're saying. You're asking why does the v1 matter? If you're in a light Boeing or airbus and do max blast you're no where near BFL. in that case the v1 would havr some slop, is that was you're referring to?
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I'm saying V1 is a little silly in airplanes where you have to say, "v1rotate." Especially after we've beaten this poor horse to death.
 
ppragman said:
I'm saying V1 is a little silly in airplanes where you have to say, "v1rotate." Especially after we've beaten this poor horse to death.
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I think I see what you're saying, but in a mid-sized Boeing or Airbus it's not uncommon to say "V1Rotate" when you're very light and/or Max Blast due to W/S in the area. Normally we don't have it that close but there are times when we do. In your quote up above you're saying it's silly for an airplane that has a V1rotate call for every T/O?
 
ppragman said:
I'm saying V1 is a little silly in airplanes where you have to say, "v1rotate." Especially after we've beaten this poor horse to death.
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V1 and Vr are pretty commonly only 2-3 knots apart in a 767 unless it's wet or there are other performance issues in play.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I think I see what you're saying, but in a mid-sized Boeing or Airbus it's not uncommon to say "V1Rotate" when you're very light and/or Max Blast due to W/S in the area. Normally we don't have it that close but there are times when we do. In your quote up above you're saying it's silly for an airplane that has a V1rotate call for every T/O?
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When the difference between V1 and Rotate happens so fast you literally say "V1Rotate" as one word on every takeoff it's pretty silly to have V1 in my opinion. I imagine there are quite a few airplanes out there where it is like that - though I could be wrong.
 
ppragman said:
When the difference between V1 and Rotate happens so fast you literally say "V1Rotate" as one word on every takeoff it's pretty silly to have V1 in my opinion. I imagine there are quite a few airplanes out there where it is like that - though I could be wrong.
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Well ... you'd be surprised if you did the math out, the VR call is the silly one, not the V1.

Don't mistake a what appears silly to be irrelevant.
 
dasleben said:
V1 and Vr are pretty commonly only 2-3 knots apart in a 767 unless it's wet or there are other performance issues in play.
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In that case, isn't it kind of silly to even think about V1 then because basically if you've started your rotation you're past your abort point and if you haven't you can abort, no?
 
ppragman said:
I'm saying V1 is a little silly in airplanes where you have to say, "v1rotate." Especially after we've beaten this poor horse to death.
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No, it's not from a procedures standpoint.

Add any contamination on the surface or certain systems failures that have been deferred and your V1 could significantly vary from your VR speed.

And at V1, you're continuing the takeoff regardless. V1-"a few knots" is where the decision should already be made so you can start the abort prior, not at or above V1.
 
ppragman said:
In that case, isn't it kind of silly to even think about V1 then because basically if you've started your rotation you're past your abort point and if you haven't you can abort, no?
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As I said above, you're VR is actually like 20knots below V1 sometimes. We can't do that obviously. Don't confused V1 for being the silly one when this is all VR's fault.

VR is France in this example.
 
Derg said:
No, it's not from a procedures standpoint.

Add any contamination on the surface or certain systems failures that have been deferred and your V1 could significantly vary from your VR speed.

And at V1, you're continuing the takeoff regardless. V1-"a few knots" is where the decision should already be made so you can start the abort prior, not at or above V1.
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Now - this makes sense, but I'll also add that I've never flown an airplane where V1 and VR were more than an instant apart.
 
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