LogTen Pro X

Derg said:
I have a contact there. Keep talking about your concerns and I'll make sure it percolates up the food chain.
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See that it does. This is sort of a frustrating thing (as @Acrofox points out) - if I'm going to be billed frequently for software it has to be flawless.

I mean, the thing had better read my schedule and its modifications without me touching anything, send an alert that says "Hey! You're about to be on duty for too many hours in the last 672!" and make me dinner simultaneously if they're going to bill me annually for it.
 
I wonder is there a way to import my SouthernJets info into it semi automagically.
 
That's another point... the schedule importer for my airline (B6) in LogTen is just a copy and paste from Flica... not very useful at all other than prefilling the flight numbers and scheduled times. For a subscription based program, I would like better schedule tracking. The less typing/tracking I manually have to do, the more I would be ok with paying a fee.
 
ClearedForOption said:
That's another point... the schedule importer for my airline (B6) in LogTen is just a copy and paste from Flica... not very useful at all other than prefilling the flight numbers and scheduled times. For a subscription based program, I would like better schedule tracking. The less typing/tracking I manually have to do, the more I would be ok with paying a fee.
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I imagine it wouldn't be hard to coordinate with Flica, since Flica has an app already.
 
Pilots are funny. They sit around and bitch about how airlines should jack up prices on passengers so that they can get a raise, but then whenever anyone raises a price on them, they flip their lid like it's some sort of personal slap in the face.

At $70/yr, it's a still a good deal. And I'm betting their company isn't rolling in dough from this niche product.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Pilots are funny. They sit around and bitch about how airlines should jack up prices on passengers so that they can get a raise, but then whenever anyone raises a price on them, they flip their lid like it's some sort of personal slap in the face.

At $70/yr, it's a still a good deal. And I'm betting their company isn't rolling in dough from this niche product.
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This isn't a pilot thing at all, and it's not 'raising the price'. You would get the exact same reaction from any group of users when you tell them that the next generation of $TheirFavoriteSoftware will be available only on a lease. Or, say, their next car. Or howabout the next album from their favorite band? For that matter, why sell anything, or license anything permanently? Why not pay a yearly 'music fee' to continue listening to your favorite music, with the promise of possibly more albums if the band feels like it? Why allow people to own property—just build it and rent it out! Same with games, and hell, everything! Just charge people 'less than a few lattes a month' (because that's apparently the standard that we use to determine the worth of something) for each individual thing and you can bleed them dry without them even noticing!

It's not a matter of "rolling in dough", it's a matter of delivering a product. If they raised the price for the next version, I doubt many people would bat an eyelash—you pay the money, you own an indefinite license to the software, and you can use it for as long as you want. The concept of 'subscribing' to a piece of software isn't the same thing, however—that concept only works for high-end, very expensive, complex software that undergoes active development on a continual basis, continually advancing (See Adobe CC) or provides a backend service as part of the fee (Also Adobe CC, Foreflight, some online games, etc).

I have a feeling that many people will just 'give in' and pay for the subscription... for now, at least. But LogTen will lose a tremendous amount of loyalty, and the moment a serious contender comes along, they'll probably lose a giant chunk of their customer base.

-Fox
 
Look at it this way guys. LogTen, as do other programs, charge you for a certain build, give you incremental updates, then charge you a full new price if you want to upgrade to the latest and greatest. 70 bucks a year is no different than going from LogTen 4 to Logten 5 in a year, then LogTen 6 after that. Hell for all 3 apps I paid over 100 bucks I think. 70 bucks a year to have the latest and greatest on my iPhone, iPad and Mac is cheaper IMO. I am sure they will still support the last LogTen release, if they don't that would suck but in the software world, subscription services are commonplace. Hell nobody talks smack about Foreflight, everyone is happy to shell out 75 bucks a year for it.
 
Acrofox said:
This isn't a pilot thing at all, and it's not 'raising the price'. You would get the exact same reaction from any group of users when you tell them that the next generation of $TheirFavoriteSoftware will be available only on a lease. Or, say, their next car. Or howabout the next album from their favorite band? For that matter, why sell anything, or license anything permanently? Why not pay a yearly 'music fee' to continue listening to your favorite music, with the promise of possibly more albums if the band feels like it? Why allow people to own property—just build it and rent it out! Same with games, and hell, everything! Just charge people 'less than a few lattes a month' (because that's apparently the standard that we use to determine the worth of something) for each individual thing and you can bleed them dry without them even noticing!

It's not a matter of "rolling in dough", it's a matter of delivering a product. If they raised the price for the next version, I doubt many people would bat an eyelash—you pay the money, you own an indefinite license to the software, and you can use it for as long as you want. The concept of 'subscribing' to a piece of software isn't the same thing, however—that concept only works for high-end, very expensive, complex software that undergoes active development on a continual basis, continually advancing (See Adobe CC) or provides a backend service as part of the fee (Also Adobe CC, Foreflight, some online games, etc).

I have a feeling that many people will just 'give in' and pay for the subscription... for now, at least. But LogTen will lose a tremendous amount of loyalty, and the moment a serious contender comes along, they'll probably lose a giant chunk of their customer base.

-Fox
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I'm not sure where you get this idea that you're somehow entitled to be able to purchase software instead of renting it. You mention Adobe CC. I pay their monthly fee for my business. We also pay for Adobe Form Central, Adobe Acrobat Pro, Propertyware, and several other software products. Some have continual updates, some don't. It's just the new business model, and frankly, it doesn't bother me one bit. I get to pay in smaller amounts instead of paying everything up front and having to worry about buying updates, and they get an enhanced revenue stream over the long term. Win/win.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Pilots are funny. They sit around and bitch about how airlines should jack up prices on passengers so that they can get a raise, but then whenever anyone raises a price on them, they flip their lid like it's some sort of personal slap in the face.

At $70/yr, it's a still a good deal. And I'm betting their company isn't rolling in dough from this niche product.
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They didn't raise the price, they changed their pricing model completely. I agree with @Acrofox, logbooks aren't subscription based products, by their nature. It isn't like I am paying for exclusive content, like cable TV.
 
mojo6911 said:
They didn't raise the price, they changed their pricing model completely. I agree with @Acrofox, logbooks aren't subscription based products, by their nature. It isn't like I am paying for exclusive content, like cable TV.
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They aren't providing subscription content, however they are providing you a subscription product support system. I have had two other logbooks and they were both annual or quarterly subscriptions. Safelog was one, I forgot what the other was. I bought Logten a few years ago, and have upgraded to the latest release since. I have had to pay annually regardless. Maybe this will promote further innovation and updates.

I can also tell everyone that so far, LogTen X is flawless. It syncs with iCloud flawlessly between devices, and the fly now feature works great. For those who don't know, the old LogTen WILL NOT sync to iCloud drive. So if you updated your iOS software to iOS 8 and selected iCloud drive, that is why it no longer syncs to iCloud. I have no idea if they have plans to update the previous software, I would think that they will.
 
mojo6911 said:
They didn't raise the price, they changed their pricing model completely. I agree with @Acrofox, logbooks aren't subscription based products, by their nature. It isn't like I am paying for exclusive content, like cable TV.
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That's really not for you to decide, it's for the company who owns the product. Your choice is to either pay it because you think it's fair, or not use the product. But to act all holier than thou like they're somehow out of line for choosing how to price their product is just a bit ridiculous. It's like everyone in the 9FI thread all pissed off that they wanted $3,500 to reserve the patio. If you don't want to pay it, then don't, but don't act like you've somehow been wronged.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not sure where you get this idea that you're somehow entitled to be able to purchase software instead of renting it.
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I get that idea from the standard of licensing for small utility software, and I reject the imposition of new terms. I don't feel 'entitled' to anything, and your choice of words is designed only to incite an emotional response rather than furthering logical discourse.

There's a word for that, you know.

You mention Adobe CC. I pay their monthly fee for my business.
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As do I. Because it's a business expense, because the products are tremendously powerful, and receive continuous upgrades at the hands of a relatively massive team of developers, because they offer cloud storage and integration within their massive suite of applications, because they demand a premium for being at the forefront of usability and featureset, and because I need them to get the job done.

In fact, that's the exact point I was making above.

[We also pay for] other software products. Some have continual updates, some don't. It's just the new business model—
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Nope. It's not the new business model, it's a new business model, and it's one that we reject for small utility applications that don't provide continual updates or rely on a backend service.

Listen, I'm not going to make absolute statements that hard-challenge you on anything related to the airlines or unions or anything in that subject area—even if I privately suspect that you may be absolutely wrong, I'll hold my tongue as I know that I know less about those specific areas than you—but here you're on my turf.

and frankly, it doesn't bother me one bit. I get to pay in smaller amounts instead of paying everything up front and having to worry about buying updates, and they get an enhanced revenue stream over the long term. Win/win.
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If LogTen had a track record of delivering meaningful improvements with each update, and if the software had continued to expand its aegis to do amazing things, then I think there wouldn't be nearly as much pushback.

What you do is not indicative of the overall market, and I'm sure you're well aware of that. As you say above, your business subscribes to quite a few pieces of software. My business does, too. Personally, I subscribe to two online games, both of which receive extensive continuous development and store massive amounts of data on the backend (Eve Online and another), but I don't subscribe to a web browser, an AIM client, skype, Scrivener, my ssh client, my calculator, my spreadsheet software, Logic, my $10000 of Waves/UAD plugins, Ableton, my modeling software, my operating system software, or ANYTHING ELSE. I pay a nominal fee for additional iCloud storage, and I have in the past paid a nominal fee for dropbox... in both cases paying for storage that is run somewhere else by someone else to extremely high availability standards.

I and others reject the concept of a revolving license for a piece of utility software for which the money I pay represents a fee solely towards ongoing development/profit if that ongoing development isn't substantial. And frankly, while a good piece of software at its core, LogTen doesn't have a track record of exponential improvement such that I would expect to recoup my license fee in functionality.

-Fox
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's really not for you to decide, it's for the company who owns the product. Your choice is to either pay it because you think it's fair, or not use the product.
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I agree completely.

But to act all holier than thou like they're somehow out of line for choosing how to price their product is just a bit ridiculous.
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When you have decades of data entered into a program, and find out that you'll need to pay an ongoing fee to continue adding to that data should you decide to update your operating system, you're entitled to be angry. It's not 'holier than thou'. Who art the 'thou' in thine appeal?

From a strictly logical point of view, I feel marginally extorted due to the amount of unique data I have in LogTen—Logically, I'm certain that the revolving license was deferred until that 'lock-in' was achieved. You may not have a problem with that, but I view it as exploitative business, even if that concept wasn't overtly in the forefront of the developer's mind.

It's like everyone in the 9FI thread all pissed off that they wanted $3,500 to reserve the patio. If you don't want to pay it, then don't, but don't act like you've somehow been wronged.
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It's nothing at all like that. (I didn't hear about that)

9FI has a finite amount of space, and we(?) are coming to them to request exclusive use of a section of it. They're proposing a rate that we do not(?) find acceptable. Proposition declined, and we can take our business elsewhere without loss; they're likewise free to attempt to turn $3500 of revenue from that patio for that night, which at the prices they charge doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

In LogTen's case, our data is an implicit hostage, and declining to move forward will potentially sever a long-standing relationship and destroy years of loyalty. Look at how effusive people have been in their recommendations for LogTen—there will be emotion involved. Look at how many of the same people are now turning up to say "Well, they haven't updated it much relative to what we've paid for it for the last few updates."

They are demonstrating their disaffection with the imposition of new licensing terms in an emotional fashion. That's also logical—small markets commoditize loyalty, and in a small software company you abandon that at your peril.

-Fox
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's really not for you to decide, it's for the company who owns the product. Your choice is to either pay it because you think it's fair, or not use the product.
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Well, ultimately, it is for the consumer to decide. The first statement contradicts the second one. No one is feeling holier than thou in this thread. Most of the people posting reject the idea of a subscription based pricing model for a piece of utility software that doesn't provide content. I don't own an Apple product, so I don't really have a dog in the fight.
 
No one is acting holier than thou? Seriously? Did you see the diatribe that the Fox just typed out? It's so laden with claims of injustice that I imagine him in face paint riding a horse in front of a bunch of troops while reciting it in a Scottish accent. "But they'll never take.....our logbook data!!!"

Fox, there is nothing unjust here. You don't own access to the product. If they want to change their pricing model, that's their right. Period. Don't like it, don't use it. But what you're calling "exploitative," I just call smart business.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No one is acting holier than thou? Seriously? Did you see the diatribe that the Fox just typed out? It's so laden with claims of injustice that I imagine him in face paint riding a horse in front of a bunch of troops while reciting it in a Scottish accent. "But they'll never take.....our logbook data!!!"
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'Kay.

Fox, there is nothing unjust here. You don't own access to the product. If they want to change their pricing model, that's their right. Period. Don't like it, don't use it.
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'Kay.

But what you're calling "exploitative," I just call smart business.
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Noted.

-Fox
 
I text my wife that they just came out with another update. I wasn't happy when 6 came out. Her response? "I think that may be the worst gift I have ever bought someone..." I like logten but I also hate computers and all the software updates/ upgrades.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No one is acting holier than thou? Seriously? Did you see the diatribe that the Fox just typed out? It's so laden with claims of injustice that I imagine him in face paint riding a horse in front of a bunch of troops while reciting it in a Scottish accent. "But they'll never take.....our logbook data!!!"

Fox, there is nothing unjust here. You don't own access to the product. If they want to change their pricing model, that's their right. Period. Don't like it, don't use it. But what you're calling "exploitative," I just call smart business.
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Just because it's long, factually based, and consumerist driven, doesn't mean it's holier than thou.

You make good points about a business choosing whatever it want's to hold out as product. Consumers have a right to not buy or later reject as terms and conditions change.

Why do you imagine him pulling a Braveheart? What we need is a Tucker Automobile and logbook to come in and change the scene. @Acrofox get to programming something better, we're all waiting for something better than Logten/LogPro. I give it a year and someone will swoop in with a better product and drive the other two the way of the do do bird.
 
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