How did you guys do it?

Boris Badenov said:
It's a fair point. If there's a dude calling a fourteen mile final to the wrong runway, he's probably an IT guy who's flying a Cirrus. They're the new Doctors, I suspect.
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No, those guys are burning Jet A. Information Technology guys make good money but can't afford a twin engine jet.
 
Finish school preferably in something non-aviation that way you will have a good fall back. Go to your local little ga airport and become a hanger rat. I would wash planes, cut the grass, whatever it took to hang and meet people, because you never know who you will meet. I ended up flight instructing there and working at a charter company at the same airport before I left to go to XJT. Doing things this way left me with minimal debt, and I met some really great guys along the way.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, and for what it's worth, I agree that one oughtn't be easily discouraged in anything, or one is very likely to wind up at BurgerWorld cursing the fates for not handing them everything they wanted exactly when they wanted it. I think we agree that the upshot is "make careful, INFORMED, rational, long-term choices". The interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that when you do this, your short-term, live-with-it-every-day, voice-in-the-back-of-your-head peace of mind is improved, as well.
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agreed 100%. You're absolutely right about being informed and making informed decisions. The biggest problem in this industry is people don't learn from other people's mistakes. Everyone keeps making the same mistakes and causing the same problems. All because they couldn't or didn't want to do the work to make an informed decision.
 
I'll add my $.02...and it may very well be worth exactly what you paid for it.

Basically, there are 2 lines of thought when trying to break into aviation: keep debt to a minimum by paying as you go and bang out your ratings and time building as quickly as possible, expense be damned. Neither, by themselves, is correct or the only way to go. Each person has different needs/ desires for their individual outcome.

So let's examine this in greater detail.

The "no-debt" camp:
Pros:
  • Entry pay is low....very low. Have as little debt as possible to be able to survive the low pay (this is a big one, so that's why it's listed first).
  • By paying as you go, training is generally slower and you may have more time to absorb the knowledge you're gaining.
  • By going slower, you're hanging out at the airport more often and it's a great way to network into 'other-than-airline' jobs.
  • Having little debt should also allow you some career flexibility because you're not beholden to the bank.
Cons:
  • As with many things in life, professional aviation is largely about luck and timing. By paying as you go, you may miss opportunities along the way.
  • By paying as you go and training slowly, you may have to repeat lessons and idea because of the training gap between flights. (Remember, flying is a perishable skill. If you're not actively training, you're actively forgetting!) This could lead to repeat training and increased cost in the long run.

The "go-like-crazy" camp:
Pros:
  • Potentially cheaper due to the lack of repeat training required.
  • Shortened time frame to marketability.
Cons:
  • Loans! Big ones at that (again, a big one...so it's listed first)! When you're making $20 -$30K for the first few years and you've got a monthly loan payment of >$1K/ month. There's not much money left over for living.
  • See above! Loans and a lack of money when working leads to stress and living in your parent's basement.
  • No seriously, flight training loans might as well be mortgages. Instead of owning a home, or a second home, or investing, or going on vacation.......you're paying down student debt with the little extra money you have.
  • Upfront training may have been cheaper....but in the long run, the interest on the loan will, most likely, exceed the pay-as-you-go training amount.

Now I'm not saying one way is better than the other. In fact, I think there is a happy medium between the two. For me personally, I was already older when I decided to quit my job and go for the career change. I used what little money I had and payed for some training. Then, once I was certain and committed to aviation, I jumped in and took out loans to become marketable as quickly as possible. The rationale, the low pay is gonna be there regardless of how long you wait, just get in and get moving up the food chain as quickly as possible. So the sooner I got the ball rolling, the sooner I can reach my aviation goals. I really have no regrets for going this route (other than not enjoying my loan payments). I was able to get in at a good time (during the upswing from 9/11) and my career has progressed nicely....with the exception of the 5 year stall thanks to the change in mandatory retirement age. Sure that means my career can also be extended by 5 years; however, I got stuck in a lower paying job much longer than I otherwise would've been. Remember, Time Value of Money....it's a real thing.

All that said, we're entering into another phase of hiring. By being at the front of the wave, your career may climb the ladder rapidly. Missing the wave, your career could languish. Luck and Timing!!! And like many before me have said, 'you'll know if you made the right choices along the way only when you look back from retirement'.....did I mention luck and timing! You may have done everything perfectly for you to develop the perfect career and through no control of your own, your career may never take off. Instead, you may bounce from furlough to furlough to merger, never actually getting anywhere. All the while, the bank wants their loan money back. So having a boatload of debt can be scary.

Only you know where you are and where you want to be. Network, make good choices based on real information, and make a commitment to yourself and your career. JC is a valuable resource, glad to see you're here asking questions. If you would ever like to talk more about it, I'm available to answer questions. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you my phone number and we can talk.

PSU grad - '99!!!
 
Just my 0.00002c - finish your degree before anything else. If you need to scratch the flying itch, take some lessons towards your PPL, but finish your schooling! Once you have said degree you can make some reasonable money while earning your certificates.
Lastly - flying for fun is a lot different to flying for a living, a backup skill/career is a good thing to have in this industry.

Bp244
 
Screenshot 2014-09-14 at 12.05.43 PM.png
SeanD said:
Cordell Patterson is your man.
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Yep:
 
Seggy said:
You seriously have Tony Romo as your QB?
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He had 17 points last week, not bad.....

I went with RB's first before the QB. He was available for my pick....I didnt think my #1 pick would be deactivated.....Wanna trade?
 
Cruise said:
I'll add my $.02...and it may very well be worth exactly what you paid for it.

Basically, there are 2 lines of thought when trying to break into aviation: keep debt to a minimum by paying as you go and bang out your ratings and time building as quickly as possible, expense be damned. Neither, by themselves, is correct or the only way to go. Each person has different needs/ desires for their individual outcome.

So let's examine this in greater detail.

The "no-debt" camp:
Pros:
  • Entry pay is low....very low. Have as little debt as possible to be able to survive the low pay (this is a big one, so that's why it's listed first).
  • By paying as you go, training is generally slower and you may have more time to absorb the knowledge you're gaining.
  • By going slower, you're hanging out at the airport more often and it's a great way to network into 'other-than-airline' jobs.
  • Having little debt should also allow you some career flexibility because you're not beholden to the bank.
Cons:
  • As with many things in life, professional aviation is largely about luck and timing. By paying as you go, you may miss opportunities along the way.
  • By paying as you go and training slowly, you may have to repeat lessons and idea because of the training gap between flights. (Remember, flying is a perishable skill. If you're not actively training, you're actively forgetting!) This could lead to repeat training and increased cost in the long run.

The "go-like-crazy" camp:
Pros:
  • Potentially cheaper due to the lack of repeat training required.
  • Shortened time frame to marketability.
Cons:
  • Loans! Big ones at that (again, a big one...so it's listed first)! When you're making $20 -$30K for the first few years and you've got a monthly loan payment of >$1K/ month. There's not much money left over for living.
  • See above! Loans and a lack of money when working leads to stress and living in your parent's basement.
  • No seriously, flight training loans might as well be mortgages. Instead of owning a home, or a second home, or investing, or going on vacation.......you're paying down student debt with the little extra money you have.
  • Upfront training may have been cheaper....but in the long run, the interest on the loan will, most likely, exceed the pay-as-you-go training amount.

Now I'm not saying one way is better than the other. In fact, I think there is a happy medium between the two. For me personally, I was already older when I decided to quit my job and go for the career change. I used what little money I had and payed for some training. Then, once I was certain and committed to aviation, I jumped in and took out loans to become marketable as quickly as possible. The rationale, the low pay is gonna be there regardless of how long you wait, just get in and get moving up the food chain as quickly as possible. So the sooner I got the ball rolling, the sooner I can reach my aviation goals. I really have no regrets for going this route (other than not enjoying my loan payments). I was able to get in at a good time (during the upswing from 9/11) and my career has progressed nicely....with the exception of the 5 year stall thanks to the change in mandatory retirement age. Sure that means my career can also be extended by 5 years; however, I got stuck in a lower paying job much longer than I otherwise would've been. Remember, Time Value of Money....it's a real thing.

All that said, we're entering into another phase of hiring. By being at the front of the wave, your career may climb the ladder rapidly. Missing the wave, your career could languish. Luck and Timing!!! And like many before me have said, 'you'll know if you made the right choices along the way only when you look back from retirement'.....did I mention luck and timing! You may have done everything perfectly for you to develop the perfect career and through no control of your own, your career may never take off. Instead, you may bounce from furlough to furlough to merger, never actually getting anywhere. All the while, the bank wants their loan money back. So having a boatload of debt can be scary.
ul
Only you know where you are and where you want to be. Network, make good choices based on real information, and make a commitment to yourself and your career. JC is a valuable resource, glad to see you're here asking questions. If you would ever like to talk more about it, I'm available to answer questions. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you my phone number and we can talk.

PSU grad - '99!!!
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I can speak from the "go-like-crazy camp."

I got a degree, my A&P and all my CFI certificates. I know if I had done the pay as you go I would still be earning less, and my training would probably still be an ongoing process, and I wouldn't have my A&P or a college degree. I'm in a prime position to get on at the airlines when hiring is intense right now. Who knows how long that will keep up, but by getting my certificates faster, I definitely have put myself in a more marketable position at a prime time.

The cons are definitely a huge consideration. Loans are a big deal. They take a good chunk out of your paycheck. The good thing though, is if you can learn to live on a little, things will exponentially get better with time. Between me and my wife we have my loans, and a car payment. We're getting by between our incomes. Unfortunately, I'll be taking a slight pay cut my first year at the regionals, but then it will go up from there. The car is paid off about a year from now, and I only have 9 years left to pay off my loans.

As I make more, I plan to continue living about the same life style and pay off loans more aggressively, but worst case scenario I have loans paid off 9 years from now. Once those loans are paid off, to me it's going to be like a raise with more disposable income. I know that sound like a dumb way to think, but in my situation that's how it is... I'll be 32 years old when my loans are paid off at the latest. I still got a lot of life left ahead of me after that.

You really have to decide what is best for you, and like @Cruise said you can't really know if the decisions you made were good until you're bumping up against retirement. I can only hope the decisions I've made lead to a feeling of "I made the right decision" 40 years later...

tl;dr I have loans. I'm marketable at a prime time. I'm making more money sooner. Loans suck, but they'll be paid off in 9 years anyways!
 
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@DanC First off, welcome to the boards! Secondly, stay in school if at all possible. I went to Western Michigan, some things happened financially with my family, that led to me picking up the tab for the rest of my schooling (was going to be a Junior at the time). I was juggling the ideas of taking out loans, transferring, etc. when an opportunity came up to be a full time sky dive pilot in Miami. While I thought I was ready to be on to the next step, I didn't want to leave under this type of circumstance. I left some awesome roommates, and a great education to come down here. I don't have much room to talk being 21, but enjoy college and the lifestyle it provides while you can. The planes will be here when you graduate - trust me. I thought I was ready to become a professional pilot, leave all my compatriots behind at Western and start boring holes through the sky for money. I was wrong. I love the flying as there is always a view I enjoy, that few others do. But, I miss school and I miss my friends. I miss going to football games, and tailgating, I miss the atmosphere. I am very blessed to have this job. All my credits transferred to UVU, and am finishing up my degree online while flying for a living. But, I would agree with the majority on this board and say stick with it. Grab your private ticket while finishing up, if you enjoy it as much as I did, then call up ATP or find a good mom and pop FBO with an instructor you enjoy and start your journey towards becoming a professional pilot.
 
L-16B said:
I'm sorry that you played college football but can't understand what being a fan or loyalty means.
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I know exactly what loyalty means.

I grew up watching the New York Football Giants
I went to Rutgers
Wife went to Texas A&M
Mother in law went to Texas
 
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