Becoming an Aviation Attorney

I would like to start reading case law to gain a better understanding of violations, penalties, etc. I have no desire to practice anymore as my status is "retired," but think it might be of some value to my potential students (provided I finish my CFI). Is the case law publicly accessible or do I need a Lexis account? Thanks.
 
PilotDefenseAttorney said:
In administrative actions there are no real limits until the case finds its way to the federal courts on appeal. When it does, you are subject to the admission requirements of the individual court and the state where the court lies. With that said, most state bars have a federal practice exemption and/or make pro hac vice admission relatively painless. Admittedly, this area is less well understood than you might expect and I think the interpretation (and application) of the rules is, in some cases, a matter of opinion - as I found out at a recent conference.
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Yes, when I moved to NC, I even got an written opinion from the local bar on my right to practice federally. Other than that, erhaps surprisingly, different federal districts have different admission requirements. In some, if you are a member of any state bar, you can be fully admitted; in others you must be a member of the local state bar. Go figure. But pro hac vice admissions are generally liberal.
 
njboeingfan said:
I would like to start reading case law to gain a better understanding of violations, penalties, etc. I have no desire to practice anymore as my status is "retired," but think it might be of some value to my potential students (provided I finish my CFI). Is the case law publicly accessible or do I need a Lexis account? Thanks.
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For the more recent stuff, the various US Court of Appeals circuits have their opinions available online. The NTSB decisions, at least back to 1992 are available online at http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/query.aspx.

Your best bet, though, on the court decisions is going to be a Lexis-type account that has full search capability. There are some lower-cost alternatives with FastCase and CaseMaker taking most of the current lead - they both have contracts with various state bar associations to provide free services to their members (I have access to both).
 
njboeingfan said:
I would like to start reading case law to gain a better understanding of violations, penalties, etc. I have no desire to practice anymore as my status is "retired," but think it might be of some value to my potential students (provided I finish my CFI). Is the case law publicly accessible or do I need a Lexis account? Thanks.
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As an aside, Fastcase has a decent iPad app that you can use to search a pretty wide scope of cases, and Google Scholar is reasonably legit also. I don't think either of them are better than WestLaw, but they do pretty good work. I did almost all my secondary research using Google Scholar in law school and found that it provided the best search results for finding broad information about an area of law.
 
I asked my wife for her Lexis password the other day and she said "that would be like giving a gun to a monkey." I not sure that she respects my pro se skills.
 
I am in the process of talking with someone I was put in contact with from one of my professors as school, a young lady looking the lawyer route. Or was. She sent me some links on some rather negative things about getting into the profession, not the typical "it's full of scum and criminals", but the trouble finding a job and dishonesty among law schools in showing their employment rate of graduates.

1) http://www.nationallawjournal.com/i...mid-Glum-Jobs-Outlook?slreturn=20140706165422

2) http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/b...xnnlx=1352909771-haWbBPOOeN6pEzDC1hbxeg&_r=1&

The two attachments she sent me had a few more articles but this is what I have read so far. She is now considering not going the law route. She said if it's what you want to do, don't let it encourage, but these are the realities so know before you go.
 
Though there is a woman at my old church who used to practice law but left in disgust. She is still a member of the bar but from what I understand but she came to not like it. I never asked her about the details but from what I gathered she did not find problems in the people she defended so much as those she worked with. Not sure what sort of law she did. She's from New York City with a thick accent, so she may have been doing some corporate law that she found an abomination. She now teaches the mentally challenged kids at my alma mater. Not that she ever discouraged me. The way I see it it is not for everyone, like anything. My just recent neurologist left and said he might go hiking in Europe for a while. So he might realise being a doctor just isn't for him and end up teaching or something. People can get their MD or JD I guess and hate it.
 
wainscottbl said:
I am in the process of talking with someone I was put in contact with from one of my professors as school, a young lady looking the lawyer route. Or was. She sent me some links on some rather negative things about getting into the profession, not the typical "it's full of scum and criminals", but the trouble finding a job and dishonesty among law schools in showing their employment rate of graduates.
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Those articles are quite accurate. There have been substantial numbers of starving lawyers as long as I have been practicing. The "cream of the crop" mostly in terms of a top tier law school's connections through alumni and history, are the ones you hear about getting high paying jobs out of school. Next are those with personal connections to their community and a flair (whether by inclination or education) for marketing (in a good way). For most out of these two categories, it is a struggle.
 
njboeingfan said:
Dude dont sweat the LSAT. It has no bearing on how good a lawyer you will be or passing the bar. Just focus on it when you are ready i take it. Do practice problems and know how and why the answer is the correct choice. IQ has no bearing on the test. Patience and above all practice. I will repeat advice that was given to me by a well-respect and well known judge. He would rather hire a well prepared lawyer than a smarter lawyer. So practice and dont give up. Law school and the prep will make you cry and want to give up at times. You will be fine. Jtrain can give you good advise as he was recently in school; I've been out for over 15 years so things might have changed. Now if i can follow my on advise and finish my cfi initial
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The LSAT is very important for getting into a good school and/or getting scholarship money. At this stage of the game for someone looking at going to law school the LSAT is pretty much the most important thing to worry about unfortunately. Also unfortunately where you go to law school has a big impact on where you can find a job and what kind of job you can find.

Just graduated law school this past May, took the FL bar exam not even two weeks ago. Think long and hard about going to law school. The market for lawyers is still in the dump, pay is not what it used to be, and law school, as you are well aware is not easy. Research a lot about the market and about what being a lawyer really is like. You mention wanting to work at a public defender for some time. Unless you are willing to move anywhere in the country those type of jobs are very competitive, especially in big cities. A $42,000 a year lawyer job in Florida is very competitive.

As for aviation law, that is a very small field, there are only 38 board certified aviation attorneys in Florida. It will rarely run a firm or pay the bills but many attorneys do like to dabble in it, mainly taxes, sales, and finance of airplanes. My law school actually offered Aviation Law course, great course and great professor. Highest grade I got in law school was of course in aviation law. I also got some practical experience in it with working in house for a real estate developer. It is a fun field for those of us who enjoy aviation. I also would love to get into aviation law or in with an aviation company in house but I am open to many things at the moment.

Law school is just different, it is its own little world with a lot to research and look into, and then even more to research and look into about being a practicing attorney. Even with all the negatives right now, including still looking for a job, I am still happy I did it.

One positive right now is that less and less people are applying to law schools so lower grades and LSAT scores will get you into better ranked law schools. Unfortunately depending on where you want to work and what type of salary you imagine getting to start the ranking of your law school can and often does matter these days.

Any questions feel free to ask me on here or PM me.
 
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Does it help that I WANT to spend my first few years as a public defender? Why? Noble ideas, though not pretending it does not pay the best and has a lot of crap, like clearly guilty criminals and losers who should likely be thrown away without the key if there was not some natural law that made us give people due process and mercy. So I want to start out defending those who cannot afford counsel to humble myself. To make myself realise it's not about the money or prestige, but the duty to justice--due process and defense even for the clearly guilty. A lawyer at my mom's church said about 90% of criminal cases are plead out and most are guilty. But I really believe in the importance of due process even for child rapists. But now I am understanding that by law school or the end or it, all noble ideas of youthfulness are sort of turned to reality. Still, does it help if I want to start out in a public defender's office?
 
wainscottbl said:
Does it help that I WANT to spend my first few years as a public defender? Why? Noble ideas, though not pretending it does not pay the best and has a lot of crap, like clearly guilty criminals and losers who should likely be thrown away without the key if there was not some natural law that made us give people due process and mercy. So I want to start out defending those who cannot afford counsel to humble myself. To make myself realise it's not about the money or prestige, but the duty to justice--due process and defense even for the clearly guilty. A lawyer at my mom's church said about 90% of criminal cases are plead out and most are guilty. But I really believe in the importance of due process even for child rapists. But now I am understanding that by law school or the end or it, all noble ideas of youthfulness are sort of turned to reality. Still, does it help if I want to start out in a public defender's office?
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I really don't know if that helps. I guess it helps in the sense that you actually want to do a job which requires you to go to law school, there is no other way around it. Like I said for a job like a public defender (PD) it is fairly competitive depending on where you live. If you are OK with moving around to find one then you will likely find a PD job somewhere. Pay is low, hours are long but it is a noble job, as many lawyer jobs are. The thing with the PD is that it is not all about wanting to humble yourself and helping others it is also a lot about getting a ton of court room experience. Court is not for everyone, and to get a job at the PD you have to show you are good in court. That is something you figure out in law school, unless you already know you are good in front of people, such as being an actor. So honestly if you want to be a PD because you think that is a job you will enjoy then clearly the only way to get that job is to go to law school. I just caution you to do all the research you can about law school and the actual practice of law and how easy/hard it is to get a job like PD.

Today is a good time to get into law school. It is just not a great time to get a job once you are done with law school. Study for the LSAT, see what your score is and then decide. The two most important things about getting into law school are you LSAT and GPA very little else matters.

Also I will say that when I first entered law school and spent a year working with DHS I never thought I could see myself going into criminal defense. But after seeing the other side a bit and learning more about it I would gladly go into it. I spent 10 months being a certified intern for legal services helping people keep their homes, fight illegal evictions etc.. The noble ideas do not go away if you find yourself in the right places making a difference in peoples lives which after doctors, attorneys have the opportunity to do.
 
All-

Thanks for this article, as I was intending on entering law school and becoming an aviation attorney after leaving the Army in 2017. Although a multi disciplined field, my approach would be applying for federal government agencies concerning aviation for experience, then to apply with a private law firm with enough experience. From here, I have two questions:

1. How important do you think that an aviation attorney is a pilot/worked in the aviation field? I currently do not have a pilot's license, but have worked in Combat Aviation Brigades. I have to pay off a couple of loans before I could start, and intend on "pay as I go" to my commercial license.

2. How plausible is it to take piloting jobs while working as an attorney? Once I get my commerical, I would like to take on part time work, either as a aerial surveyor, or a cargo pilot to maintain in the field, but the money maker should be law.
 
reydingo said:
All-

Thanks for this article, as I was intending on entering law school and becoming an aviation attorney after leaving the Army in 2017. Although a multi disciplined field, my approach would be applying for federal government agencies concerning aviation for experience, then to apply with a private law firm with enough experience. From here, I have two questions:

1. How important do you think that an aviation attorney is a pilot/worked in the aviation field? I currently do not have a pilot's license, but have worked in Combat Aviation Brigades. I have to pay off a couple of loans before I could start, and intend on "pay as I go" to my commercial license.
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It's a matter of perception. One doesn't have to be a criminal in order to do criminal defense work. But, let me ask you - most other things being equal, if the FAA were after you, would you prefer an attorney who was also a pilot over one who was not? Some folks wouldn't care but I think most would prefer someone who has a more practical understanding of the practical context in which the regulations take place.

2. How plausible is it to take piloting jobs while working as an attorney? Once I get my commerical, I would like to take on part time work, either as a aerial surveyor, or a cargo pilot to maintain in the field, but the money maker should be law.
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It depends on your workload as an attorney which also depends on your areas of practice. Heck, you might need that flying job to put Ramen on the table!

As an example, for a time I was in-house counsel in a job that gave me enough time to finally get my CFI and teach at least one session in the middle of the work week. I then moved to a practicing position in which the economic downturn meant a substantial workload increase, ending all but the odd flight review, transition or evening flight with a student who has as bad a schedule as I.
 
reydingo said:
All-

Thanks for this article, as I was intending on entering law school and becoming an aviation attorney after leaving the Army in 2017. Although a multi disciplined field, my approach would be applying for federal government agencies concerning aviation for experience, then to apply with a private law firm with enough experience. From here, I have two questions:

1. How important do you think that an aviation attorney is a pilot/worked in the aviation field? I currently do not have a pilot's license, but have worked in Combat Aviation Brigades. I have to pay off a couple of loans before I could start, and intend on "pay as I go" to my commercial license.

2. How plausible is it to take piloting jobs while working as an attorney? Once I get my commerical, I would like to take on part time work, either as a aerial surveyor, or a cargo pilot to maintain in the field, but the money maker should be law.
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Are you eligible for the GI Bill? I graduated with a guy that had law school paid for by the Navy thanks to the GI Bill. Bro finished his undergraduate degree during his enlistment period, and then got out and had zero debt upon leaving law school.

Also, on the issue of piloting jobs while working as an attorney...

It's my opinion that, if you live in base, even working at a regional is a part time job. You don't have a whole lot of hard days off, but if your airline is properly staffed, you don't fly much on reserve.

So while I don't ever intend to pay my bills with legal work, I expect it to be something I do on the side.

Maybe.

If I can ever pass the bar.
 
jtrain609 said:
Are you eligible for the GI Bill? I graduated with a guy that had law school paid for by the Navy thanks to the GI Bill. Bro finished his undergraduate degree during his enlistment period, and then got out and had zero debt upon leaving law school.

Also, on the issue of piloting jobs while working as an attorney...

It's my opinion that, if you live in base, even working at a regional is a part time job. You don't have a whole lot of hard days off, but if your airline is properly staffed, you don't fly much on reserve.

So while I don't ever intend to pay my bills with legal work, I expect it to be something I do on the side.

Maybe.

If I can ever pass the bar.
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You will pass. No question.
 
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