Sweatin' the C-172...

MikeD said:
All are prior military, and some of the rigidity of tunnel vision, the "A before B before C before D, etc", the "we must plan something before we go, right?", kind of mentality I have to break from these guys drives me up a wall.
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I'm laughing, because I feel exactly like that when I go fly Cessnas. "Wait, we don't have to do a 3-hour brief, a step brief, and a crew brief at the plane? I'm a lost puppy."
 
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Hacker15e said:
So I'm going to go get checked out in my local Aero Club's C-172R tomorrow...

...and thought you guys might be amused that tonight I'm sitting here surrounded by Cessna manuals, checklists, EPs, ops limits, etc, and studying it frantically like tomorrow was my IPUG ACT mission in the F-15E (I know that's probably Greek to most of you, but it was probably one of the toughest non-combat flights I've ever flown in my entire career. @hook_dupin, @MikeD, and probably a couple others know what I'm talking about).

My wife looks over at me sitting in the corner, eyes closed, verbally rehearsing emergencies, and says:

"Overachiever! It is a Cessna, you dolt, you're not leading a combat mission over Iraq."

Can't help it...my mind is just programmed this way. I've gotta have my "head work" right before I get to the airplane, regardless of what kind of iron it is. Airmanship habits are a bitch to break!
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If only more CFI applicants were to, you know, actually study the manuals. sigh
 
tomokc said:
And if only more 172 pilots would know & understand aircraft systems & avionics, obtain a thorough weather briefing, check NOTAMs, perform a thorough preflight inspection, self-verify IMSAFE, brief their passenger(s), use the radios wherever possible, follow checklists...
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I do not like the Cessna checklist, but I follow a checklist when I fly the thing.
 
I used to do quite a few rental checkouts for 300 to 400 hour Navy P-3/P-8 guys at my old flight school. Some were good sticks, others not so much. I remember one guy taxied at what basically amounted to Mach turtle. So...... Flippin..... Slow. I remember looking down at the Hobbs and we had already burned through .4 before even beginning taxi. Then we burned through another .4 by the time we were done taxiing and doing the run up. I was irritated at the time but it is funny to me now.

Most guys would flare a little high or carry power too long on approach. Never had anything too scary happen.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I used to do quite a few rental checkouts for 300 to 400 hour Navy P-3/P-8 guys at my old flight school. Some were good sticks, others not so much. I remember one guy taxied at what basically amounted to Mach turtle. So...... Flippin..... Slow. I remember looking down at the Hobbs and we had already burned through .4 before even beginning taxi. Then we burned through another .4 by the time we were done taxiing and doing the run up. I was irritated at the time but it is funny to me now.

Most guys would flare a little high or carry power too long on approach. Never had anything too scary happen.
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I wouldn't be irritated by that. More time=more $$, right? ;)
 
chrisreedrules said:
I used to do quite a few rental checkouts for 300 to 400 hour Navy P-3/P-8 guys at my old flight school. Some were good sticks, others not so much. I remember one guy taxied at what basically amounted to Mach turtle. So...... Flippin..... Slow. I remember looking down at the Hobbs and we had already burned through .4 before even beginning taxi. Then we burned through another .4 by the time we were done taxiing and doing the run up. I was irritated at the time but it is funny to me now.

Most guys would flare a little high or carry power too long on approach. Never had anything too scary happen.
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Paid by the hour!
 
Autothrust Blue said:
More or less, yes. I have a short, killer-items-only checklist I wrote back when I was in the 172 a bunch; it's flow-pattern then read (silently, if you prefer). I do the same thing in our Twin Bonanza too.

It uses this philosophy.
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I'm familiar with that article... I recall reading it long ago and agreeing with it. That said, sometimes I think we take the checklist thing too far in small airplanes. There simply aren't that many 'killer items' in a single-engine Cessna, and most of them are highly conditional. For example, taking off from a short runway while "at" max gross weight on a hot day can legitimately make the flap setting a 'killer item', but reading 'flaps 10-15°' off a checklist doesn't really solve that problem when 15° gets you off the ground high enough to turn and 10° puts you in the trees.

It's possible that the 207 is the simplest airplane ever made, because I simply can't think of anything that a checklist would catch. Everything is cued by context. It's like numbers... I really don't care what the 'numbers' are for the 207, because it tells me exactly what it needs.

As airplanes become more complex or less familiar, of course, the value of flows backed by a (airline style, not GA style) written checklist does increase dramatically, especially given abnormal / emergency procedures. But the principal of context/flows for simple airplanes is similar to the concept that as long as gear is a drag device, you won't forget it. I can't say I've ever forgotten to put the flaps down in a flap-equipped airplane, for example.

I dunno. I just don't know what there is to read off a checklist in a 172 during non-instructional flying. However, I generally have a great deal of respect for your thought process and expertise, and am interested in understanding your (personal) rationale rather than trying to make a case against your process.

-Fox
(I also realize that, historically, I've found myself fundamentally differing with what often seems to be the prevailing viewpoint on many subjects. Sometimes it's due to lack of shared context, sometimes it's due to fundamental differences in perception / interpretation / execution, and sometimes it's due to lack of experience in things that later alter my viewpoint... though I try to stay open enough to the latter to preclude it as a strong source of influence, it's nearly impossible to do so with perfect objectivity.)
 
Acrofox said:
I'm familiar with that article... I recall reading it long ago and agreeing with it. That said, sometimes I think we take the checklist thing too far in small airplanes. There simply aren't that many 'killer items' in a single-engine Cessna, and most of them are highly conditional. For example, taking off from a short runway while "at" max gross weight on a hot day can legitimately make the flap setting a 'killer item', but reading 'flaps 10-15°' off a checklist doesn't really solve that problem when 15° gets you off the ground high enough to turn and 10° puts you in the trees.

It's possible that the 207 is the simplest airplane ever made, because I simply can't think of anything that a checklist would catch. Everything is cued by context. It's like numbers... I really don't care what the 'numbers' are for the 207, because it tells me exactly what it needs.

As airplanes become more complex or less familiar, of course, the value of flows backed by a (airline style, not GA style) written checklist does increase dramatically, especially given abnormal / emergency procedures. But the principal of context/flows for simple airplanes is similar to the concept that as long as gear is a drag device, you won't forget it. I can't say I've ever forgotten to put the flaps down in a flap-equipped airplane, for example.

I dunno. I just don't know what there is to read off a checklist in a 172 during non-instructional flying. However, I generally have a great deal of respect for your thought process and expertise, and am interested in understanding your (personal) rationale rather than trying to make a case against your process.

-Fox
(I also realize that, historically, I've found myself fundamentally differing with what often seems to be the prevailing viewpoint on many subjects. Sometimes it's due to lack of shared context, sometimes it's due to fundamental differences in perception / interpretation / execution, and sometimes it's due to lack of experience in things that later alter my viewpoint... though I try to stay open enough to the latter to preclude it as a strong source of influence, it's nearly impossible to do so with perfect objectivity.)
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By all means!

I learned how to fly with the Cessna "book" checklist in my lap most of the time at the insistence of various and sundry CFIs. A lousy checklist can be worse than no checklist, and letting the lawyers write the checklists has resulted in a bunch of GA pilots having bad, or nonexistent, checklist habits. But my checklist isn't lousy. Checklist use is a really good habit to be in, I think, regardless of the equipment—flow-and-verify means that you're really paying attention. (Aperture was heavy on checklist discipline as well, even if they used the lousy Cessna checklist.)

You're spot on about single engine Cessna airplanes. Each phase of flight really only needs 2-4 items to be done. But it behooves me to write them down and do them the same way EVERY TIME so that I can trap my own mistakes.

Here are some reasons:
(1) I was flying a lot of different, but similar airplanes at the time. The operator wanted them all flown slightly differently. You wouldn't hurt much if you goofed various things up, but it behooved me to not goof anyway.
(1a) It's a good habit to be in anyway. Everyone flying anything bigger than a Seminole is going to require you to use a checklist of some sort.
(2) The operator wanted us to use a checklist. They didn't say Cessna's, so I wrote my own, airline-style.
(3) Authoring one made me delve into the books more.
(4) Fast forward to now: I don't fly our Twin Bonanza that often; it's just complex enough that a set of flows, backed by a checklist really are required especially given that my flight experience in it is usually 5 hours or so every 90 days.

You've got good points about e.g. flap settings. My 172/182 et al. checklist says "FLAPS -- (___)" — more so that you'll think about it. But it was more to build habits then. (Now, of course, I depend on it in the TwinBo.)

Incidentally, you'll hear me mumble "Brakes, trim, flaps, autofeather, [condition levers] max, MAP clear" before every takeoff in the Brasilia. Written nowhere, but those are the things that WILL kill/otherwise hurt you with a quickness in that airplane. And since the FLAP gauge and gear handle/lights are right in front of me on the Brasilia, I glance at them crossing the fence, too. ;)

("Haven't tried it...yet")
 
Acrofox said:
I'm familiar with that article... I recall reading it long ago and agreeing with it. That said, sometimes I think we take the checklist thing too far in small airplanes. There simply aren't that many 'killer items' in a single-engine Cessna, and most of them are highly conditional. For example, taking off from a short runway while "at" max gross weight on a hot day can legitimately make the flap setting a 'killer item', but reading 'flaps 10-15°' off a checklist doesn't really solve that problem when 15° gets you off the ground high enough to turn and 10° puts you in the trees.

It's possible that the 207 is the simplest airplane ever made, because I simply can't think of anything that a checklist would catch. Everything is cued by context. It's like numbers... I really don't care what the 'numbers' are for the 207, because it tells me exactly what it needs.

As airplanes become more complex or less familiar, of course, the value of flows backed by a (airline style, not GA style) written checklist does increase dramatically, especially given abnormal / emergency procedures. But the principal of context/flows for simple airplanes is similar to the concept that as long as gear is a drag device, you won't forget it. I can't say I've ever forgotten to put the flaps down in a flap-equipped airplane, for example.

I dunno. I just don't know what there is to read off a checklist in a 172 during non-instructional flying. However, I generally have a great deal of respect for your thought process and expertise, and am interested in understanding your (personal) rationale rather than trying to make a case against your process.

-Fox
(I also realize that, historically, I've found myself fundamentally differing with what often seems to be the prevailing viewpoint on many subjects. Sometimes it's due to lack of shared context, sometimes it's due to fundamental differences in perception / interpretation / execution, and sometimes it's due to lack of experience in things that later alter my viewpoint... though I try to stay open enough to the latter to preclude it as a strong source of influence, it's nearly impossible to do so with perfect objectivity.)
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Its funny, I was reading your checklist the other day for the 207 and it is half the length of our checklist. I actually liked it. For the 207 I have built some flows that work well for me.
 
ASpilot2be said:
Its funny, I was reading your checklist the other day for the 207 and it is half the length of our checklist. I actually liked it. For the 207 I have built some flows that work well for me.
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I'm pretty happy with our overall culture and the company, and I'm very loyal to our local management pilots (and actually fairly impressed with the 'remote' management pilots I've met).

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
I'm familiar with that article... I recall reading it long ago and agreeing with it. That said, sometimes I think we take the checklist thing too far in small airplanes. There simply aren't that many 'killer items' in a single-engine Cessna, and most of them are highly conditional. For example, taking off from a short runway while "at" max gross weight on a hot day can legitimately make the flap setting a 'killer item', but reading 'flaps 10-15°' off a checklist doesn't really solve that problem when 15° gets you off the ground high enough to turn and 10° puts you in the trees.

It's possible that the 207 is the simplest airplane ever made, because I simply can't think of anything that a checklist would catch. Everything is cued by context. It's like numbers... I really don't care what the 'numbers' are for the 207, because it tells me exactly what it needs.

As airplanes become more complex or less familiar, of course, the value of flows backed by a (airline style, not GA style) written checklist does increase dramatically, especially given abnormal / emergency procedures. But the principal of context/flows for simple airplanes is similar to the concept that as long as gear is a drag device, you won't forget it. I can't say I've ever forgotten to put the flaps down in a flap-equipped airplane, for example.

I dunno. I just don't know what there is to read off a checklist in a 172 during non-instructional flying. However, I generally have a great deal of respect for your thought process and expertise, and am interested in understanding your (personal) rationale rather than trying to make a case against your process.

-Fox
(I also realize that, historically, I've found myself fundamentally differing with what often seems to be the prevailing viewpoint on many subjects. Sometimes it's due to lack of shared context, sometimes it's due to fundamental differences in perception / interpretation / execution, and sometimes it's due to lack of experience in things that later alter my viewpoint... though I try to stay open enough to the latter to preclude it as a strong source of influence, it's nearly impossible to do so with perfect objectivity.)
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Definitely an interesting conversation- but you must also consider where that pilot will be in 5 years. If you teach him the habit of relying on a mental checklist, and just "knowing" the configuration of the aircraft, then you're not teaching an appropriate habit pattern for large, fast airplanes. The checklist is more or less arbitrary in a fuel injected Cessna...in a big airplane, it can absolutely save your life, especially when you are doing the same thing over and over and over. Repetition leads to excellence, followed very shortly after by complacency. It happens to all of us.
 
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