Captain guards the yoke...

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I would offer this:

There is a delicate balance between zero defect and no child left behind. Because of the state of pilot hiring and how prone the hiring process is to litigation, there is simply no way or reason to test the skill of a potential candidate. If an accident happens, I believe that US carriers take a much more balanced approach to viewing the pilot's whole body of work and seeing if there is a trend or if this pilot is indeed worth saving. I know here at WN, it has gone both ways. Speaking to those who were part of the decision making process in a recent incident, they said that the main deciding factor between keeping and canning the pilots (one was retrained, the other was let go) was their attitude. One was contrite and admitted full fault after the incident, the other deflected blame and lawyered up. I would much rather work in a company where an honest mistake was viewed with that lens than the "zero defect" company that crushes your career and sends you on your way.

Does it make a company more safe to fire everyone who is involved in a near miss, tail scrape, or wrong runway incident? I would argue that it actually has the opposite effect because it scares the pilots so bad that they are in constant fear of making an honest mistake and losing their job. Honestly, in all of my time flying, I can't even count the number of times that my mistakes or omissions have been caught by a fellow crew member or checklist. I consider myself a very safe and attentive pilot, but I am not above making a mistake or two from time to time (maybe even every 2-3 minutes). I am very glad that I work in a country where this is accepted, at a company where a balanced approach is taken, and have a union who will go to bat for me.
 
e6bflyer said:
I would offer this:

There is a delicate balance between zero defect and no child left behind. Because of the state of pilot hiring and how prone the hiring process is to litigation, there is simply no way or reason to test the skill of a potential candidate. If an accident happens, I believe that US carriers take a much more balanced approach to viewing the pilot's whole body of work and seeing if there is a trend or if this pilot is indeed worth saving. I know here at WN, it has gone both ways. Speaking to those who were part of the decision making process in a recent incident, they said that the main deciding factor between keeping and canning the pilots (one was retrained, the other was let go) was their attitude. One was contrite and admitted full fault after the incident, the other deflected blame and lawyered up. I would much rather work in a company where an honest mistake was viewed with that lens than the "zero defect" company that crushes your career and sends you on your way.

Does it make a company more safe to fire everyone who is involved in a near miss, tail scrape, or wrong runway incident? I would argue that it actually has the opposite effect because it scares the pilots so bad that they are in constant fear of making an honest mistake and losing their job. Honestly, in all of my time flying, I can't even count the number of times that my mistakes or omissions have been caught by a fellow crew member or checklist. I consider myself a very safe and attentive pilot, but I am not above making a mistake or two from time to time (maybe even every 2-3 minutes). I am very glad that I work in a country where this is accepted, at a company where a balanced approach is taken, and have a union who will go to bat for me.
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I probably worded it poorly, but this is sort of what I was attempting to say.

I think if people have good intentions and a good attitude, they are worth holding onto. Except for a few rare circumstances, these things will be more than enough to carry someone through a safe productive career. Making an honest mistake is usually the best teaching event anybody could ask for.

That said, there are some people in this career who need a very firm come to jeebus meeting. Everyone knows who these people are...bad attitudes, terrible CRM, short tempers, training issues, etc.

Repeat offenders with bad attitudes should not be doing this.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I probably worded it poorly, but this is sort of what I was attempting to say.

I think if people have good intentions and a good attitude, they are worth holding onto. Except for a few rare circumstances, these things will be more than enough to carry someone through a safe productive career. Making an honest mistake is usually the best teaching event anybody could ask for.
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They're unlikely to ever forget about it, if it was sufficiently spectacular. The errors that I've made I do my damnedest to not repeat, and I've made some.

It is a very expensive investment to make, but if you terminate that pilot's career, you're out the initial investment plus the subsequent, possibly large (of the bending metal variety) investment that your company made in teaching the lesson. And the very rare circumstances are out there, too. Some people do not belong in an airline cockpit.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Was actually talking about a post by CaptBill, granted I don't know if he is a kid or not. If not it was ridiculous to presume that the only reason TP is ATN expat is because he couldn't cut it in the US. Anybody who has been flying since 9/11 knows better.
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ZapBrannigan said:
Than Captain Bill was at UAL while thousands of his colleagues were furloughed for a decade and took jobs all over the planet to keep food on the table. He should know better. Shame on him.
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A Life Aloft said:
He was at/from CO. It was still an uncalled for comment, IMO.
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I completely respect and accept any and all comments directed at any words I wrote in this thread. Granted, this thread got sidetracked, but I think there are some fundamental things that were said by the individual that I had/have issues with that bordered on ludicrous logic. While I still vehemently disagree with not only what he said, but also in the way he said it, I apologize to the forum as a whole for making it too personal and allowing it to get away from the JC tradition of discussing and learning in a non-hostile environment. I guess agreeing to disagree is the answer to this one. Sorry again guys!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
He worked for EK for at least a decade, smartass. I have no idea what he's doing now, nor do I care. Based on his attitude, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near an airplane he's operating.
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I like how guys today who were basically teenager kids when 9/11 happened get to judge other people's career paths, especially the ones who have been flying before you were even born. I see nothing wrong with his attitude. Perhaps you need to look in a mirror?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Zap, not sure if that was directed at me, but if so, then you're barking up the wrong tree. My career started pre-9/11, but more importantly, I don't see anyone, myself especially, attacking his career path. His attitude and his support for the draconian way labor is treated at some of these ex-pat airlines is the problem. He holds up the fact that pilots fear termination for a hard landing as some sort of badge of honor and proof that "standards" are higher at these places, when it fact it just points out that these carriers are just a notch above slave ships. That's the issue, not his career path.
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Gulfstream Academy isn't exactly a career track worth mentioning pre-9/11. You were hired at Pinnacle at age 19 and then Airtran at age 24 where you've been since and you just turned 30 recently in the past year (or two). No furloughs, no money stoppage to pay the mortgage, etc. Yet you speak from a holier-than-art-thou for those who work at non-union airlines when circumstances took pilots there.

Speaking of hard landings, there's at least one SWA Captain who had a hard landing at LGA that was fired and SWAPA won't be getting her job back.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Gulfstream Academy isn't exactly a career track worth mentioning pre-9/11. You were hired at Pinnacle at age 19 and then Airtran at age 24 where you've been since and you just turned 30 recently in the past year (or two). No furloughs, no money stoppage to pay the mortgage, etc. Yet you speak from a holier-than-art-thou for those who work at non-union airlines when circumstances took pilots there.

Speaking of hard landings, there's at least one SWA Captain who had a hard landing at LGA that was fired and SWAPA won't be getting her job back.
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I didn't realize he was so young... Typical petulant child.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Gulfstream Academy isn't exactly a career track worth mentioning pre-9/11. You were hired at Pinnacle at age 19 and then Airtran at age 24 where you've been since and you just turned 30 recently in the past year (or two). No furloughs, no money stoppage to pay the mortgage, etc. Yet you speak from a holier-than-art-thou for those who work at non-union airlines when circumstances took pilots there.

Speaking of hard landings, there's at least one SWA Captain who had a hard landing at LGA that was fired and SWAPA won't be getting her job back.
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I don't know if I'd knock someone for getting to AirTran by age 24, that's pretty impressive form my perspective as someone turning 24 this week with a PPL and 180 hours. Juuuuuuust sayin'.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Speaking of hard landings, there's at least one SWA Captain who had a hard landing at LGA that was fired and SWAPA won't be getting her job back.
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Uhm, I'm fairly certain that union or not, if you ignore a call for a go-around with the words "Let me show you how we do things at this airline" you're going to be handed your walking papers.
 
ChasenSFO said:
I don't know if I'd knock someone for getting to AirTran by age 24, that's pretty impressive form my perspective as someone turning 24 this week with a PPL and 180 hours. Juuuuuuust sayin'.
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PPL and 180 hours? I was flying a CRJ at 236 hours. You are slackin' ;)

Timing and luck, nothing to do with skill. In his case it was made possible by skipping college and flying for a regional airline at age 19. It is impressive, but when taken in context about a really early head-start, it's about what was expected. I had a very similar background (not Gulfstream, but Jet U) so I graduated college at 22, regional at 23, and a LCC at 27. But I don't see what the big deal is. This industry is ALL about timing and luck and almost always both of those things are out of your control.

Autothrust Blue said:
Uhm, I'm fairly certain that union or not, if you ignore a call for a go-around with the words "Let me show you how we do things at this airline" you're going to be handed your walking papers.
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Heresay until proven otherwise? I haven't seen the CVR yet?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Heresay until proven otherwise? I haven't seen the CVR yet?
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Me either.

I'm eagerly awaiting reading it, mind you; this is speculation from that "other" site. The NTSB are busy doing NTSB things.

(Ignoring that, and considering it as a purely hypothetical incident in which one crewmember says that to another, it's a damn good way to get walking papers.)
 
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