Captain guards the yoke...

[typhoonpilot]

Again, it seems unimportant to me, in a statistical sense, how far from some arbitrary, subjective line one operates. If X/100 airplanes arrive intact and undamaged, the system is working. No? It seems to me that everything else is just personal preference, subjective interpretation, etc*. The curse of humankind.

A few years back the talk was that at the current accident rate and continued growth in air travel there would be 1 fatal accident per week in the near future. So do we really want to operate just above that line, or do we want to improve it so that the accident rate falls further?


TP

 

[Boris Badenov]

I would say that because the majority of US airline flying is from one radar vectored ILS to another. Also the US airline pilot has a significant support network operationally that helps keep him/her out of trouble by accomplishing many tasks on his/her behalf.

Fair point on the navaids, etc. Does the accident rate change when considering only, say, non-sched or supplemental 121 longhaul? I have no idea, but my sense is that Omni, Atlas, Kalitta, etc aren't planting airplanes in the ground on a regular basis because they're incompetent and can't handle a non-precision approach. I keep looking for some objective indication that US carriers are inferior in some way, and I keep not finding it. Lead this horse to water!

 

[Boris Badenov]

A few years back the talk was that at the current accident rate and continued growth in air travel there would be 1 fatal accident per week in the near future. So do we really want to operate just above that line, or do we want to improve it so that the accident rate falls further?


TP

I think we all want to improve. I'd love to see zero accidents for the rest of time. I suppose my response would be that non-US operators should lecture US operators on how it should be done when said non-US operators have a verifiably, data-backed superiority in safety. I'm not seeing it, yet.

 

[typhoonpilot]

FedEx and UPS sure seem to be able to total aircraft with alarmingly regularity. Compare that to Singapore Cargo or Cathay Cargo.


TP

 

[dasleben]

I would say that because the majority of US airline flying is from one radar vectored ILS to another. Also the US airline pilot has a significant support network operationally that helps keep him/her out of trouble by accomplishing many tasks on his/her behalf.

News to me.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I think we all want to improve. I'd love to see zero accidents for the rest of time. I suppose my response would be that non-US operators should lecture US operators on how it should be done when said non-US operators have a verifiably, data-backed superiority in safety. I'm not seeing it, yet.

I think both sides should. As I said, central load planning would likely have prevented the Melbourne incident as well as the MK Airlines one.

It's going to take about two more MD-11 crashes at FedEx before Seagull will agree with me that 1000 feet AAL should be the cut-off point for stabilization criteria in a widebody.


TP

 

[typhoonpilot]

News to me.

Atlas is not who I am referring to.

TP

 

[Boris Badenov]

...and here we go again. How many sectors do they fly, vs. UPS or FedEx? I don't know the answer to that, btw. Fleet size, etc...no idea! But please, if there are numbers to show that US cargo ops crash more often than their furriner brethern per mile flown, bring em! But if so, and I rather doubt it, would you postulate something more than "they crash more 'cause they aren't as good"? Goalposts have wheels around here!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I was going to ask why you ended up overseas in the first place - Were you unable to get hired by a sub-standard American carrier? But to be honest with you, I don't really care, so you can save the explanation.

He was a legacy US airline pilot affected by the post 9/11 turmoil. Bottom line, TP is one of those few guys who has the experience to say what he is stating above. He's been through the US aviation industry, legacy US airline, foreign airline, and therefore is qualified to speak for BOTH perspectives. I respect him for his experience and his neutrality in issues. Unlike others (like ATNPilot) who see "non-union" on an airline and instantly go off the ranch.

 

[A Life Aloft]

You used to be. I think your slave masters have beaten it out of you, though.

You mean Boeing? lol He's a training pilot for their foreign carrier customers on new airframes.

TP, have those sobs at Boeing handcuffed you to the 787 and started flogging you yet, or are they saving that for the 9?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Yeah the character assassination stuff is just as lame as it was 10 years...er, months, er minutes ago, when I was doing it. Still and all, there's a truth here, and its written in numbers. Can freaking anyone show me a real statistic that says we're doing it Rong?

 

[typhoonpilot]

Yeah the character assassination stuff is just as lame as it was 10 years...er, months, er minutes ago, when I was doing it. Still and all, there's a truth here, and its written in numbers. Can freaking anyone show me a real statistic that says we're doing it Rong?

Nobody said Americans were doing it wrong. What was said was there is a minor percentage of American pilots who operate to a lower standard than might be accepted outside of the USA. Agree or not, that is what I have witnessed. It bares itself out when those pilots do go overseas and work for a foreign carrier. Just because they got way with unstable approaches and lack of knowledge and don't crash doesn't mean they are operating to an acceptable standard.

Ever read the book, "How to Lie with Statistics"?

You're asking for statistics that don't exist, in any event. The only way to get to them is get the IOSA audit data from every carrier that participates and create a massive spreadsheet with multiple parameters to see who makes fewer mistakes. The likelihood of that happening is minimal considering the confidential nature in which it is protected.

Remember it was the DAL pilot who recently, and very publicly, admitted to making mistakes all the time



Typhoonpilot

 

[Boris Badenov]

Remember it was the DAL pilot who recently, and very publicly, admitted to making mistakes all the time



Typhoonpilot

Of all the national characteristics of Americans, a certain unreflective honesty is the last that I'd want to part with. I screw up all the time, just ask my boss (he's here, in the internet-ether!). I'd venture to bet you do, too. I'm not sure why we're still pursefighting about this. If you've statistics to show, show em. Otherwise...

 

[Joshwa]

This is a fairly interesting discussion. If I can offer the opposite perspective - that of a British short-haul driver. We have a few american ex-pat skippers I've flown with and talked about this with. In Europe we tend to have a lot more of an SOP-oriented approach to flying. The weather and the air traffic environment is not conducive to regular visual approaches (and companies tend to be slightly wary of them) so we are probably not as slick or competent in judging visuals and profiles as your average US line pilot.

The SOPs are generally well though out, with changes tending to come in response to various incidents we have around the line. The big problem we have tends to be unstable approaches and an unwillingness to the throw them away or ask for more track miles (see the company reluctance regarding visuals) and the companies see SOPs as a method of controlling this to death. In some ways it's fairly frustrating as they pay you to fly by the SOPs even when sometimes they're a wee bit daft. In others it's good as it protects you, and it makes it very easy to know what the lady or gent in the left hand seat is going to do. The variations I see are as much to do with previous airline culture as to do with national culture. Anyone ex-Sabena for example tends to be a bit of a raw data hero, switching everything off asap no matter what the weather and while they are all excellent manual pilots, they also have a disproportionate number of unstable approaches and gate busts.

I really enjoy flying with US captains as they tend to be fairly relaxed, and offer an excellent opportunity to learn from a different perspective and background of aviation knowledge.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Uh okaaaaaaay... wow!

After all these years of saying inflammatory things, I'm still able to shock you? Awesome.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You mean Boeing? lol He's a training pilot for their foreign carrier customers on new airframes.

TP, have those sobs at Boeing handcuffed you to the 787 and started flogging you yet, or are they saving that for the 9?

He worked for EK for at least a decade, smartass. I have no idea what he's doing now, nor do I care. Based on his attitude, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near an airplane he's operating.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I would say that because the majority of US airline flying is from one radar vectored ILS to another. Also the US airline pilot has a significant support network operationally that helps keep him/her out of trouble by accomplishing many tasks on his/her behalf.

That's cute.

"God bless, follow Oooonited and cleared for the visual approach."

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Funny thing about this is that, according to Wikipedia, the pilots were both asked to resign after arrival back in Dubai. I've worked for more than one airline where tail strikes have occurred on takeoff; at no point were the pilots terminated or asked to resign. They all kept their jobs after going through retraining, and procedures have been changed to prevent it from happening again. There's simply no reason to fire pilots over stuff like this if the only outcome is a bit of scraped metal or tailskid, especially when fatigue and other factors are present.

Side note: I've personally flown with several of the pilots involved in those tail strikes, and I can attest that they are not mediocre pilots. There were a number of "swiss cheese" factors involved that led to the tail strikes, any of which could have led any of us down the same path.

I think it's important to look at each situation differently. Sometimes you can be trying to do the right thing, all the holes like up, and you end up in an undesired state. In those cases I think the absence of discipline is important as a culture of fear will detract from the learning that needs to happen.

That said, the one point I do agree with @typhoonpilot on is that US airlines do have a bit of a "no child left behind" attitude. We all know the names of people who lack the skills and attitude required to do this job well. Obviously people should be given chances to shape up, but the fact that we have had incidents in this country and within the company people say "oh that guy? Yeah, that sounds about right" is a problem.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

To say that this thread has strayed from the OP is an understatement. I will say this to you younger guys though. If you weren't in this business before 9/11 you have no right to weigh judgement on another pilot's career path. None. There are those, TP included who endured numerous furloughs before and after 9/11 that reset or altered their career paths forever. If the right decision in a post 9/11, post USAir world was to seek a career as an expat, that says much less about ones ability to get hired domestically, and much more about the character required to abandon everything you know in order to pursue a career that you love and keep food on the table for your family.

So to the kids today who started flying in the mid 2000s, quickly upgraded at the regional de jour, and are now reaping the benefit of the first hiring boom since 2001 - knock off the attitude! You're not invulnerable to the industry turbulence that caused a decade long career interruption for us older guys.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

To say that this thread has strayed from the OP is an understatement. I will say this to you younger guys though. If you weren't in this business before 9/11 you have no right to weigh judgement on another pilot's career path. None. There are those, TP included who endured numerous furloughs before and after 9/11 that reset or altered their career paths forever. If the right decision in a post 9/11, post USAir world was to seek a career as an expat, that says much less about ones ability to get hired domestically, and much more about the character required to abandon everything you know in order to pursue a career that you love and keep food on the table for your family.

To say that there were some dark times in the Blue household circa 2003-2006 would be a dramatic understatement. About the only thing I remember from that period, besides not enjoying high school, was the applause that I heard while the Old Man was watching the contract roadshow where they announced that crew meals were going away. "Utter financial destruction" would be an understatement for what followed, culminating in the PBGC assumption of the Delta Pilots' Retirement Plan and all the other things that were surrendered under threat of Section 1113(c). And we consider him one of the lucky ones, because through it all he kept his seat and his base. There were side errands that involved Gulfstreams and other sundry side businesses that, naturally, didn't pan out.

(As I was discussing with my sim check airman last week when I gave him a ride to LAX: I still choose to do this, with the knowledge, and indeed the experience, that we are ALL one smoking crater or terrorist act, or a combination of both, away from being funemployed or having a major revision to our careers. That's one of the reasons that I put a butt-ton of effort into avoiding the creation of said smoking crater, through maintenance of flight proficiency, taking my job seriously, showing up well-fed and reasonably well-rested, and all the other things.)

Consequently, I am inclined to reserve judgments regarding career paths.