Done wrong by Sheble Aviation

I was there in 2007 and had an overall good experience. Had Joe sr. for two checkrides and thought he was fair. The instructors I had went out of thier way to help.
 
Acrofox said:
I felt like I should weigh in in support of the OP mostly because I passed—with little help from my instructor, who signed me off before we even flew together.

I felt that Joe Senior was a good examiner, but overall I was not pleased with the operation. Long story short, I feel like I paid $3k for a commercial ASEL add-on checkride.

-Fox
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Right. Which is why I concluded with "Not saying that's what happened, but be sure to be honest about why you failed." Schools do bad things a LOT in this industry. But projecting blame happens a LOT too. I have to be careful to be honest with myself in difficult circumstances, and I have a feeling I'm not alone.
 
99driver said:
Right. Which is why I concluded with "Not saying that's what happened, but be sure to be honest about why you failed." Schools do bad things a LOT in this industry. But projecting blame happens a LOT too. I have to be careful to be honest with myself in difficult circumstances, and I have a feeling I'm not alone.
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I suspect that's a normal reaction. Without some degree of confidence in our abilities, we would neither wish to leave the ground nor survive long if we did... but confidence is a tricky thing. Assuming there are "bad" pilots out there in equal proportion to "good" pilots (Which, as I'll talk about below, I don't believe), it would be deleterious in the extreme for people in the "bottom half" to realize it. They can still be good, safe pilots, but they must believe in themselves for that to be... and so when confronted with an apparent lack of skill or ability, it's a natural—and necessary—response to minimize the issue or transfer blame (gee, hello AIH) to protect the ego.

Now that I've talked about the common theory, let me talk about my alternate theory of pilot performance and safety.

My position: Being a pilot is, by its nature, a command position.

Like all command positions, when performance is individualized, blame for failure is equally so; to put it a different way, being in a command role often means accepting blame for a failure that was in no direct way your fault. People who cannot hack being in a command role, or people who cannot accept this responsibility, have no business being pilots, but are anyway... in spades.

Actual pilot performance isn't an even dispersion between "bad pilots" and "good pilots". Pure "Pilot Skill" is largely concentrated in one range of the graph. In other words: Most people have a normal ability to subconsciously perceive and process time/speed/distance/spatial relationships as they pertain to aviation. Some people are better at training kinesthetic skills than others are, and those people may be outliers; likewise, many people are slower to hone those skills but, given time and experience, most people will operate within a fairly narrow range of ability. Furthermore, if people expand their envelopes in the same way, they will largely develop similar perceptions and skillsets.

An example: me. I've been told I'm a decent stick, from time to time. I also love aerobatics, and fly them decently well. On the surface, that makes me think "Yeah. I'm a decent stick. ^.^"

That's how the delusion begins, and that's how we begin to overestimate our ability. In reality, at the moment I'm a bit rusty, having been instructing part time for the past half a year and flying very little. I haven't flown any acro since last May. My commercial pilot maneuvers were pretty ok on my CFI ride, but they're not amazing, and I haven't done any of them since... I haven't even had any practice in crosswinds lately, though I've been struggling to find some with my students, and more than once I tried to demonstrate a maneuver only to botch it a little—or more—on the first run through. But in my mind, in my mental image, I'm an "acro pilot" and "a decent stick."

I'm getting ready to start training at a 135 operator. If I blow it, what would be more natural than to think "Geez, I'm a decent stick. I fly acro, I can wheel land a Great Lakes in ten knots of direct crosswind, and do things in an airplane that would have most pilots puking their guts out. The training must have been bad. I must have pissed somebody off. The checkride was unfair. The winds were ridiculous that day."?

This is, in my view, a normal line of thinking, and on one hand, it's critical that we DO think this way. We must know that we "can" do it. On the other hand, while allowing ourselves to think along those lines, we must equally temper those thoughts with unapologetic reality. "Frankly, I was rusty. My cross-wind landing was abysmal, and I wouldn't have passed me, either."

The latter is also the side that demonstrates the "command position" aspect to one's personality—taking responsibility for ones failures—and that is generally why people don't like to hear people minimize or excuse their failures, even if they were legitimate.

Pretty much anyone could do the flying I've done. There's nothing special about me (or most of us) outside of my experience, and that experience isn't very special... it's just a preference. But I need to believe that I'm a decent stick, because it improves my performance. I also need to temper that belief with conservative decision making based on reality, and stay "in the box" if I want to stay safe.

So no, I would say that you're not at all alone, and I would say to anyone else that the first step is to recognize these patterns within yourself.

-Fox, rambling somewhere above Northern California on AS 266.
 
Another Sheble survivor here, went in '08. Seemed a bit disorganized but as long as you took the initiative to remind them what you needed, they took care of it. Vinny was a good ground instructor. Senior was a good guy, tough but fair. Never met the younger Sheble though.
 
banjo said:
Always 2 sides to the story.
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I wish people would stop saying that. It's cute, but it implies something that's inaccurate.

There are "two sides" to the Nigerian prince story, "two sides" to the snake oil salesmen, "two sides" to ponzi schemes, "Two sides!" to investor malfeasance, "two sides" to a criminal's statements to the police, "two sides" to dishonest police who make up evidence, "two sides" to a shoddy job done by a roofer, "two sides" to an auto repair business that rips off a gullible customer by selling him parts and services he doesn't need, and "two sides" to a shady flight school.

Unfortunately, one side is the truth and the other is a lie.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
I wish people would stop saying that. It's cute, but it implies something that's inaccurate.

There are "two sides" to the Nigerian prince story, "two sides" to the snake oil salesmen, "two sides" to ponzi schemes, "Two sides!" to investor malfeasance, "two sides" to a criminal's statements to the police, "two sides" to dishonest police who make up evidence, "two sides" to a shoddy job done by a roofer, "two sides" to an auto repair business that rips off a gullible customer by selling him parts and services he doesn't need, and "two sides" to a shady flight school.

Unfortunately, one side is the truth and the other is a lie.

-Fox
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I don't know, I've found it to be more or less accurate most of the time.
 
I did my Comm multi add on back in 2011 and found it to be a very efficient and straight forward process. I showed up basically ready for the oral and had the PTS memorized. My instructor was a former ATP instructor and was very sharp. Knocked out a couple of training flights and took my check ride with a DPE they had brought in from the LAS FSDO. I never actually flew with the one of the Shebles but my experience was a positive one.
 
Acrofox said:
I suspect that's a normal reaction. Without some degree of confidence in our abilities, we would neither wish to leave the ground nor survive long if we did... but confidence is a tricky thing. Assuming there are "bad" pilots out there in equal proportion to "good" pilots (Which, as I'll talk about below, I don't believe), it would be deleterious in the extreme for people in the "bottom half" to realize it. They can still be good, safe pilots, but they must believe in themselves for that to be... and so when confronted with an apparent lack of skill or ability, it's a natural—and necessary—response to minimize the issue or transfer blame (gee, hello AIH) to protect the ego.

Now that I've talked about the common theory, let me talk about my alternate theory of pilot performance and safety.

My position: Being a pilot is, by its nature, a command position.

Like all command positions, when performance is individualized, blame for failure is equally so; to put it a different way, being in a command role often means accepting blame for a failure that was in no direct way your fault. People who cannot hack being in a command role, or people who cannot accept this responsibility, have no business being pilots, but are anyway... in spades.

Actual pilot performance isn't an even dispersion between "bad pilots" and "good pilots". Pure "Pilot Skill" is largely concentrated in one range of the graph. In other words: Most people have a normal ability to subconsciously perceive and process time/speed/distance/spatial relationships as they pertain to aviation. Some people are better at training kinesthetic skills than others are, and those people may be outliers; likewise, many people are slower to hone those skills but, given time and experience, most people will operate within a fairly narrow range of ability. Furthermore, if people expand their envelopes in the same way, they will largely develop similar perceptions and skillsets.

An example: me. I've been told I'm a decent stick, from time to time. I also love aerobatics, and fly them decently well. On the surface, that makes me think "Yeah. I'm a decent stick. ^.^"

That's how the delusion begins, and that's how we begin to overestimate our ability. In reality, at the moment I'm a bit rusty, having been instructing part time for the past half a year and flying very little. I haven't flown any acro since last May. My commercial pilot maneuvers were pretty ok on my CFI ride, but they're not amazing, and I haven't done any of them since... I haven't even had any practice in crosswinds lately, though I've been struggling to find some with my students, and more than once I tried to demonstrate a maneuver only to botch it a little—or more—on the first run through. But in my mind, in my mental image, I'm an "acro pilot" and "a decent stick."

I'm getting ready to start training at a 135 operator. If I blow it, what would be more natural than to think "Geez, I'm a decent stick. I fly acro, I can wheel land a Great Lakes in ten knots of direct crosswind, and do things in an airplane that would have most pilots puking their guts out. The training must have been bad. I must have pissed somebody off. The checkride was unfair. The winds were ridiculous that day."?

This is, in my view, a normal line of thinking, and on one hand, it's critical that we DO think this way. We must know that we "can" do it. On the other hand, while allowing ourselves to think along those lines, we must equally temper those thoughts with unapologetic reality. "Frankly, I was rusty. My cross-wind landing was abysmal, and I wouldn't have passed me, either."

The latter is also the side that demonstrates the "command position" aspect to one's personality—taking responsibility for ones failures—and that is generally why people don't like to hear people minimize or excuse their failures, even if they were legitimate.

Pretty much anyone could do the flying I've done. There's nothing special about me (or most of us) outside of my experience, and that experience isn't very special... it's just a preference. But I need to believe that I'm a decent stick, because it improves my performance. I also need to temper that belief with conservative decision making based on reality, and stay "in the box" if I want to stay safe.

So no, I would say that you're not at all alone, and I would say to anyone else that the first step is to recognize these patterns within yourself.

-Fox, rambling somewhere above Northern California on AS 266.
Click to expand...
Back to what is legal. Is it legal for an instructor with a known medical condition:sleep apnea, to continue flying? No. Is it legal to falsify logs? No. Joe Jr's license has been revolved by the Fed's, the Los
D man Sheble's is a drunk, no longer with the operation and they are now operating out of Needles, Ca. The good days of Sheble's are over! The Sheble's family is dysfunctional (wife has restraining order against husband) and they are in no position to run the local dog pound much less a professional flight school.
 
Back to what is legal. Is it legal for an instructor to fly when he knows (management too) he has sleep apnea ? No. Is it legal to falsify log books? No. Old man Sheble's is out of the picture, drunk, the wife has a restraining order against Joe Jr and the Fed's have revolved his DPE. I would not hire Sheble's to pick up dog , much less run a professional flight school. The jigg is over for Sheble's .
 
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Ron Adams said:
The Sheble's family is dysfunctional (wife has restraining order against husband) and they are in no position to run the local dog pound much less a professional flight school.
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Sounds like just about every person I know living in California. Unless you just fell off a turnip truck..
 
Ajax said:
Good lord

I did american flyers, paid maybe $1000 and got my asel add on done over a weekend
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It's funny, we hardly ever hear about American Flyers. I've seen most of the the "big box", accelerated schools (Sheble, I suppose, only marginally fitting into this category). American Flyers is the only one to whom I would pay any money or from whom I would accept any instruction. AF really seemed to have their act together. Good program, good instructors, good standardization, good value. Some of their 172RGs had somewhat questionable gear (I recall two in a month having gear ups), but other than that all good. And yet, we hardly ever hear about them. Why is that?
 
Ron Adams said:
The Sheble's family is dysfunctional (wife has restraining order against husband) and they are in no position to run the local dog pound much less a professional flight school.
Click to expand...

Running the dog pound vs. training pilots. Hmm.

Running dog pound:
1. Find dog.
2. Put dog in cage.
3. Feed dog a bare minimum.
4. Tell dog to fetch.
5. Tell dog to stay.
6. Tell dog to come.
7. Give dog a bone.
8. Dog still barks a lot.

Training pilots:
1. Find pilot.
2. Put pilot in cockpit.
3. Pay pilot bare minimum.
4. Tell pilot to fetch.
5. Tell pilot to stay.
6. Tell pilot to come home.
7. Give pilot a type rating.
8. Pilot still barks a lot.
 
Got my CFI there 2004. They were using car parts, in aircraft and got in trouble with the FAA for doing so. I escaped with my ratings and without being ripped off. Sorry for your bad experience. Sometimes you just get caught up in bad stuff, gone really bad.
 
Ron Adams said:
Back to what is legal. Is it legal for an instructor to fly when he knows (management too) he has sleep apnea ? No. Is it legal to falsify log books? No. Old man Sheble's is out of the picture, drunk, the wife has a restraining order against Joe Jr and the Fed's have revolved his DPE. I would not hire Sheble's to pick up dog , much less run a professional flight school. The jigg is over for Sheble's .
Click to expand...

You do know there are plenty of airline pilots out there with sleep apnea who take their C-pap machines with them to work?

All your posts have been about one topic. We get it. If you have nothing else to contribute to this site, please reconsider why you're here.
 
Crop Duster said:
It's funny, we hardly ever hear about American Flyers. I've seen most of the the "big box", accelerated schools (Sheble, I suppose, only marginally fitting into this category). American Flyers is the only one to whom I would pay any money or from whom I would accept any instruction. AF really seemed to have their act together. Good program, good instructors, good standardization, good value. Some of their 172RGs had somewhat questionable gear (I recall two in a month having gear ups), but other than that all good. And yet, we hardly ever hear about them. Why is that?
Click to expand...

I did their instrument ground school course. It was 5-star. If the rest of their program is that good, I would definitely recommend training there.
 
Other than being allergic to cats, I had a great experience there. If the old man gets into big enough trouble, will they go through his previous sign offs and put them in jeopardy?
 
Crop Duster said:
It's funny, we hardly ever hear about American Flyers. I've seen most of the the "big box", accelerated schools (Sheble, I suppose, only marginally fitting into this category). American Flyers is the only one to whom I would pay any money or from whom I would accept any instruction. AF really seemed to have their act together. Good program, good instructors, good standardization, good value. Some of their 172RGs had somewhat questionable gear (I recall two in a month having gear ups), but other than that all good. And yet, we hardly ever hear about them. Why is that?
Click to expand...

Because you're the only person I've ever heard say that about them. The one I worked, the school manager went out on leave for a coke problem. Theblead scheduler is in rehab because he is a recovering alcoholic, the planes were constantly breaking, and their version of standardization was " here, read this, and watch us for a few flights." I used to work for one.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Got my CFI there 2004. They were using car parts, in aircraft and got in trouble with the FAA for doing so. I escaped with my ratings and without being ripped off. Sorry for your bad experience. Sometimes you just get caught up in bad stuff, gone really bad.
Click to expand...
jknight8907 said:
I did their instrument ground school course. It was 5-star. If the rest of their program is that good, I would definitely recommend training there.
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mshunter said:
Because you're the only person I've ever heard say that about them. The one I worked, the school manager went out on leave for a coke problem. Theblead scheduler is in rehab because he is a recovering alcoholic, the planes were constantly breaking, and their version of standardization was " here, read this, and watch us for a few flights." I used to work for one.
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Wow! @mshunter , sounds like they might have filmed "Flight" at the facility you were at.
My experience with them was at the Chicago facility. Sorry to hear others had less than stellar experiences.
I guess the old maxim has never been more true. "Your mileage may vary." Or, perhaps the other old maxim, "Cocaine is a helluva drug."
 
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