Too old to start pilot career? Need advice!

dasleben said:
I want to be very clear that it can absolutely be just as bad as he's described.
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I have to agree that the wage assessment by Tony can be pretty accurate when compared to the average progression of a pilot. For me, I was stuck in the average aviation job for about 10 years. In those 10 years I made between $20k and low $30k.

Eventually, due to another aviation choice, I went bankrupt.

Now, with luck and timing, I have a good aviation job. But it's only because of that - luck and timing, mostly luck.
 
Roger Roger said:
Uh, wut? 40-50k is pretty livable in most of the country.
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40-50k is bottom tier for semi-skilled labor in most of the country. Livable, yes, but it's not "good money". It's retail-store-manager money, new-hand construction money, postal carrier first-year money. It's not a "good wage", which was the previous poster's point, though it's livable. All I'll say is that I'm very lucky to be still pulling in money from my previous job.

Of course, I'd take the job even if I wasn't. #partoftheproblem

-Fox
 
Roger Roger said:
Uh, wut? 40-50k is pretty livable in most of the country.
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It's also what you can make working at the mall.

We're only worth what we negotiate, but $40k-$50k/year is not good money for an airline pilot. The fact that it's close to the median household income means nothing; most people don't have jobs that are as responsible and technical as ours.
 
dasleben said:
It's also what you can make working at the mall.

We're only worth what we negotiate, but $40k-$50k/year is not good money for an airline pilot. The fact that it's close to the median household income means nothing; most people don't have jobs that are as responsible and technical as ours.
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What mall are you talking about?
I agree that it would be great if pilots were paid more, but the statement that you need a sugar momma to live on that in most of the country is false. Especially if that $50k comes with benefits that are even halfway decent.
 
Roger Roger said:
What mall are you talking about?
I agree that it would be great if pilots were paid more, but the statement that you need a sugar momma to live on that in most of the country is false. Especially if that $50k comes with benefits that are even halfway decent.
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Really, any mall in a big metro area. Hell, one of my former roommates made that folding clothes as an assistant manager of a clothes store. I bring up that example often because it gets the point across.

"Most of the country" is an odd thing to say, as well. These airlines paying these low wages all have major pilot bases in high cost of living cities! JFK, ORD, LAX, etc.
 
dasleben said:
Really, any mall in a big metro area. Hell, one of my former roommates made that folding clothes as an assistant manager of a clothes store. I bring up that example often because it gets the point across.

"Most of the country" is an odd thing to say, as well. These airlines paying these low wages all have major pilot bases in high cost of living cities! JFK, ORD, LAX, etc.
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$50k as a lacky at the gap? I'd be surprised.
 
GypsyPilot said:
$50k as a lacky at the gap? I'd be surprised.
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That's the problem—you're surprised. That's exactly why we keep repeating these numbers over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over again.

I feel like we have this conversation every few months and it's like everyone just resets to their previous points. What's the point of talking about things if nobody brings new concepts to the table, or is willing to modulate their understanding by investigating others' viewpoints? People who say that their brother, sister, friend, or aunt are making $50k as an assistant manager for a retail store aren't lying, ffs. Nor are the people who say that there are widely available jobs in the computer industry starting at $60k for anyone with a few neurons to rub together and a basic understanding of some fundamental concepts. Nor am I lying when I say that degrees are basically irrelevant in good part of the tech industry, outside some of the douchy east-coast offices.

I'm not guessing at that stuff. I have many years tied up in it. I'm an expert at the top of my field. Likewise people who have ample personal examples of nominal wages aren't just blowing smoke... we're trying to point out that compensation in the aviation industry is most often woeful relative to the monetary investment, risk involved, skills required and responsibility incurred.

I wouldn't do anything with my life but fly. And I'm extremely grateful to be here... but it's important to know what it's -not-, and it's important to know what the industry really looks like in the worst or even the most common case, so that you can come in with your eyes open. This isn't 1985—a $40k in 1985 is the equivalent of a $90k job today. That $50k/year flying job that was 'good money' in 1990 that pays $40k in 2014 (because, you know, gas is expensive, margins are thin, etc) is paying, adjusted for inflation, the equivalent of $22k.

Wages have not risen in aviation—they have fallen, even in the face of significant inflation even as training costs have relatively risen. That's just reality.

~Fox
 
dasleben said:
"Most of the country" is an odd thing to say, as well. These airlines paying these low wages all have major pilot bases in high cost of living cities! JFK, ORD, LAX, etc.
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Fair enough about pilot bases, but how many people on these low wages are actually living in the expensive bases? I'm really not trying to pick a fight, or argue that pilot pay is plenty good because I'm totally on board with the argument that we should be making more, I just think your experience as a diehard Californian with huge student loans debt has strongly colored your perspective on what a livable wage is (actually I'm pretty sure you admitted to such either elsewhere in this thread or in another thread on here).
 
dasleben said:
Assistant manager, yes. And more like $42k. Either way, it's in that same $40k-$50k window guys are touting as "decent" pay for an airline pilot.
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I thought you were lying until I did the math... That's $21/hour at 40 hours a week for 50 weeks.

Seems high for a Gap employee but when broken down doesn't sound crazy.
 
So wait you guys are defending a career that has a historical down trend in wages with a upward trend in cost of living.

Smart business there.
 
Roger Roger said:
Fair enough about pilot bases, but how many people on these low wages are actually living in the expensive bases? I'm really not trying to pick a fight, or argue that pilot pay is plenty good because I'm totally on board with the argument that we should be making more, I just think your experience as a diehard Californian with huge student loans debt has strongly colored your perspective on what a livable wage is (actually I'm pretty sure you admitted to such either elsewhere in this thread or in another thread on here).
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I am a diehard Californian, but I live here with 38 million of my closest friends. For those keeping score at home, that's roughly 12% of the total US population, and it's also the most populous state in the country by a wide margin. Based on what I know about you, you live and work in Alaska, which is the 47th least populated state in the US, and has roughly 2% of the total population of California alone. While $40k-$50k/year may be a perfectly acceptable where you live, it's not acceptable for the tens of millions more who live in CA, NY, and other higher cost-of-living states. Pay levels must be based on areas where most people actually live, not cheaper areas where fewer people live. Most importantly, it should never be assumed that people will simply uproot themselves to go live in, say, Tulsa, just to make $40k/year into an acceptable income level.

And yes, I pay a lot each month for student loan repayment, though in 2014, it's not an unheard of amount. In fact, for those coming out of school now, college tuition is much higher, and $40k-$50k/year simply will not be enough to repay those loans.

We're only worth what we negotiate, and we simply don't need pilots defending low pilot pay. It's never in your best interest.
 
dasleben said:
I am a diehard Californian, but I live here with 38 million of my closest friends. For those keeping score at home, that's roughly 12% of the total US population, and it's also the most populous state in the country by a wide margin. Based on what I know about you, you live and work in Alaska, which is the 47th least populated state in the US, and has roughly 2% of the total population of California alone. While $40k-$50k/year may be a perfectly acceptable where you live, it's not acceptable for the tens of millions more who live in CA, NY, and other higher cost-of-living states. Pay levels must be based on areas where most people actually live, not cheaper areas where fewer people live. Most importantly, it should never be assumed that people will simply uproot themselves to go live in, say, Tulsa, just to make $40k/year into an acceptable income level.

And yes, I pay a lot each month for student loan repayment, though in 2014, it's not an unheard of amount. In fact, for those coming out of school now, college tuition is much higher, and $40k-$50k/year simply will not be enough to repay those loans.

We're only worth what we negotiate, and we simply don't need pilots defending low pilot pay. It's never in your best interest.
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Out of curiosity, what are are the rental rates for apartments down in your area?
 
dasleben said:
In a nicer area, $1500/mo is common for a 1 bedroom. Less nice area, you can get by with about $1000.
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We were $1306/month for a 2-bed, 2-bath in an "okay" area of Camarillo. Of course, all areas of Camarillo are okay; I paid more to drive 45 miles to work once a week instead of paying more to live in, God help me, Woodland Hills or something like that.
 
dasleben said:
While $40k-$50k/year may be a perfectly acceptable where you live, it's not acceptable for the tens of millions more who live in CA, NY, and other higher cost-of-living states. Pay levels must be based on areas where most people actually live, not cheaper areas where fewer people live.
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I agree with you almost completely, and don't mean to undermine your argument, but cost of living here in Juneau, AK is roughly similar to cost of living in the bay area. The differences are that AK has no income tax, and no state sales tax, which deflates our cost structure slightly by comparison.

But it feels like there's less money wasted in the fringes, on intangible things like auto registration, insurance, etc. Urban living tends to be more complex living almost incidentally.

We're only worth what we negotiate, and we simply don't need pilots defending low pilot pay. It's never in your best interest.
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Indeed. This isn't really about greed ... it's about false economy produced by a workforce allowing their pay to remain artificially low. Then again, observing groups of pilots, I have to conclude that "herding cats" is imminently applicable. We are our own worst enemies.

-Fox
 
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