LOW PASS - Embraer Sêneca

Thanks for your reply and story @MikeD

Two issues here

I'd say there are a lore more than two.

1st, there isn't a point to flying a low pass down a runway in most cases.

Agreed.

People engage in semi-risky behaviors all the time because they are "fun". .

To each their own.

If someone wants to film such activities, who cares?

It's having folks knowingly film them when they are engaging in this behavior is the problem I have. Once again saying, "hey watch this" makes me cringe.


2nd, in most cases some simple common sense precautions can make these kind of activities fairly risk free.

Or they can use common sense and say, "lets have fun flying straight and level to our destination and minimize the risk even more so."

If a person wants to fly a low pass to get a quick adrenaline rush, then a runway will provide an environment where they can be fairly certain that there will be few hazards to their aircraft. As opposed to buzzing someones house where there can be antennas or power-lines.

Or folks can say, "I buzz fields all the time, buzzing ones house isn't a big deal!!!!"



When I spin an airplane, I start at a nice high altitude in one of our designated practice areas, and set a conservative exit altitude.

Ok.

I knew guys who would do wheelies on busy city streets, but I only ever did them in an empty parking lot while wearing a full face helmet, boots, gloves and a leather jacket.

Ok.

This sort of risk management is IMHO the mark of a safety minded individual who understands what they are doing is risky, but is taking responsibility for their own actions.

I disagree with this statement.

There is much more to being a safety minded individual than taking responsibility for their actions. While that is important, anticipating and avoiding risky situations is the mark of a safety minded individual.

Flying a non aerobatic airplane overweight, out of CG, doing aerobatic maneuvers that it was never designed to perform, and at low altitude is an entirely different scenario. That is a "the rules don't apply to me" attitude, and no safety program can ever prevent this kind of accident. As long as these kind of people can get the keys to an airplane they are going to do what they want. I forget where I posted that video of the L-39 buzzing Santa Monica Pier, but that pilot had already had his license suspended several times for taking paying passengers in his jet. All the safety programs in the world are worthless without safety minded personnel.

I think you need to look at what your definition is of a safety minded individual.
 
Hey watch this! Are you cringing yet? You've been ranting about this little video in two different threads for four days now. This thread wasn't enough for you. You had to start another thread about it in another forum and weren't satisfied with the answer(s) you got there either and even the attorney didn't give you the answer that you hoped he would. Everyone gets it. This isn't the first time you've gone on these tirades on your personal opinion of what constitutes "safe" flying. Like your similar criticisms in another thread of a guy having some fun in his plane in the bush and you went off on bush pilots for a week. You aren't accomplishing anything, you aren't the guru of aviation safety and you aren't going to sway anyone either. You are never going to "get it". Accept that, everyone else certainly understands it. If these videos disturb you that much, stop watching them. That, or maybe you could start a third thread. Allow others to share and enjoy them if that's what they want to do. Quit resurrecting the horse and then beating it to death.
 
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It's having folks knowingly film them when they are engaging in this behavior is the problem I have. Once again saying, "hey watch this" makes me cringe.




Or they can use common sense and say, "lets have fun flying straight and level to our destination and minimize the risk even more so."


There is much more to being a safety minded individual than taking responsibility for their actions. While that is important, anticipating and avoiding risky situations is the mark of a safety minded individual.

How do you feel about airshows? Lots of risk-taking, lots of video, lots of "hey watch this".
 
You probably don't want to know.

The static displays and flybys are fine, but once more develops from that, I think it's an unnecessary risk.
 
Hey watch this! Are you cringing yet?

No

You've been ranting about this little video in two different threads for four days now. This thread wasn't enough for you.

Just because some think "hey this is cool", doesn't mean it's safe.

You had to start another thread about it in another forum and weren't satisfied with the answer(s) you got there either and even the attorney didn't give you the answer that you hoped he would.

The answer is the answer.

This isn't the first time you've gone on these tirades on your personal opinion of what constitutes "safe" flying. Like your similar criticisms in another thread of a guy having some fun in his plane in the bush and you went off on bush pilots for a week.

You take a look in the general topics to see that a company up there flying in the bush has had like four fatal accidents in the last year?

You aren't accomplishing anything, you aren't the guru of aviation safety and you aren't going to sway anyone either. You are never going to "get it". Accept that, everyone else certainly understands it. If these videos disturb you that much, stop watching them. That, or maybe you could start a third thread. Allow others to share and enjoy them if that's what they want to do. Quit resurrecting the horse and then beating it to death.

Are you saying that if I see something that concerns me from a safety standpoint I shouldn't bring it forward for discussion on here?
 
You take a look in the general topics to see that a company up there flying in the bush has had like four fatal accidents in the last year?
First, Hageland does not operate super cubs nor do they fly to gravel bars. Second, 2 fatality accidents, not 4. Third, you have no idea what you're talking about regarding the company culture and issues behind those crashes. They're not even remotely related to a guy showing off good off airport techniques in a super cub.
 
The real salient point, which everyone is dancing around in the discussion, is "risk management" vs "risk avoidance".

We've noted many times that airmanship (or, in FAA parlance, Aeronautical Decision Making) is a journey that requires experience -- it cannot be learned in a classroom or summed up in platitudes. It is judgment, one of the main cornerstones of airmanship, where an aviator assesses risk, compares it to operational necessity, and determines which decision makes the most sense for that particular instance.

As we've also noted earlier, structures and procedures cannot supplant judgment or airmanship, but are often used by organizations to try and regulate decisionmaking by pilots operating inside those structures.

The reality is, in order to build judgment and airmanship, one has to be put in positions where they have to make a decision. The more diverse those experiences are, the sharper the "edge" on the decisionmaking and judgment will be.

Unfortunately, the artificial structures and procedures can be, and often are, so conservative that they keep a pilot from areas of flight that require real judgment to affect the correct outcome. This is where we get CFIs who are afraid to legally spin aircraft, IFR pilots with ridiculously high "personal mins", and dozens of other scenarios where pilots have extremely conservative decisionmaking because they are not exposed to the actual limitations of either their aircraft or their personal performance. Simply put, just like a muscle, judgment has to be exercised to remain sharp.

There's a reason that the phrase in airmanship is "risk management" and not "risk avoidance". Namely, that flying is an inherently risky undertaking, and that if we truly wanted to avoid risk, we would never even strap in and remove the control lock.

The airman's skill is in the ability to assess the situation and apply the appropriate level of risk acceptance for the conditions. The most conservative answer is NOT always the best answer. Defaulting to the most conservative answer is lazy airmanship, and does not always result in the most safe operation of the aircraft. In fact, risk avoidance, by definition, can be damaging to one's airmanship and decisionmaking, as it can artificially build limitations to a pilot's "bag of tricks" to solve the problems endemic to operating an aircraft. In other words, in such a scenario, a pilot and an aircraft may be safely capable of much more performance than the pilot thinks/believes.

The risk avoider is the mirror image of the reckless/aggressive/rogue pilot, who chooses to engage in risky behavior but has an overly aggressive list of what's acceptable. This is the "cowboy" -- for my military brothers who get the reference, this is "Bud Holland". The Bud Hollands of the world are the ones who are demonized because they are an easy lightning rod, but they simply occupy the polar opposite end of the same airmanship spectrum that a risk avoider does. The two are equally far away from the center, where the skill in making the high-performance decisions in dynamic situations live.

The bottom line here is that this "risk management" line moves: it depends on all of the factors involved in flight, including pilot, experience, aircraft, weather, location, conditions, maintenance, purpose of the flight, and the list goes on. The skill is in knowing what risk to accept on which occasion, and that it is, in fact, okay to accept risk when we decide to do anything at all in an aircraft.
 
First, Hageland does not operate super cubs nor do they fly to gravel bars. Second, 2 fatality accidents, not 4. Third, you have no idea what you're talking about regarding the company culture and issues behind those crashes. They're not even remotely related to a guy showing off good off airport techniques in a super cub.

What I do know is that if a company (in the lower 48) had two fatals in a year, they probably would have had (already) an emergency revocation of their Air Carrier Certificate.
 
The real salient point, which everyone is dancing around in the discussion, is "risk management" vs "risk avoidance".

We've noted many times that airmanship (or, in FAA parlance, Aeronautical Decision Making) is a journey that requires experience -- it cannot be learned in a classroom or summed up in platitudes. It is judgment, one of the main cornerstones of airmanship, where an aviator assesses risk, compares it to operational necessity, and determines which decision makes the most sense for that particular instance.

As we've also noted earlier, structures and procedures cannot supplant judgment or airmanship, but are often used by organizations to try and regulate decisionmaking by pilots operating inside those structures.

The reality is, in order to build judgment and airmanship, one has to be put in positions where they have to make a decision. The more diverse those experiences are, the sharper the "edge" on the decisionmaking and judgment will be.

Unfortunately, the artificial structures and procedures can be, and often are, so conservative that they keep a pilot from areas of flight that require real judgment to affect the correct outcome. This is where we get CFIs who are afraid to legally spin aircraft, IFR pilots with ridiculously high "personal mins", and dozens of other scenarios where pilots have extremely conservative decisionmaking because they are not exposed to the actual limitations of either their aircraft or their personal performance. Simply put, just like a muscle, judgment has to be exercised to remain sharp.

There's a reason that the phrase in airmanship is "risk management" and not "risk avoidance". Namely, that flying is an inherently risky undertaking, and that if we truly wanted to avoid risk, we would never even strap in and remove the control lock.

The airman's skill is in the ability to assess the situation and apply the appropriate level of risk acceptance for the conditions. The most conservative answer is NOT always the best answer. Defaulting to the most conservative answer is lazy airmanship, and does not always result in the most safe operation of the aircraft. In fact, risk avoidance, by definition, can be damaging to one's airmanship and decisionmaking, as it can artificially build limitations to a pilot's "bag of tricks" to solve the problems endemic to operating an aircraft. In other words, in such a scenario, a pilot and an aircraft may be safely capable of much more performance than the pilot thinks/believes.

The risk avoider is the mirror image of the reckless/aggressive/rogue pilot, who chooses to engage in risky behavior but has an overly aggressive list of what's acceptable. This is the "cowboy" -- for my military brothers who get the reference, this is "Bud Holland". The Bud Hollands of the world are the ones who are demonized because they are an easy lightning rod, but they simply occupy the polar opposite end of the same airmanship spectrum that a risk avoider does. The two are equally far away from the center, where the skill in making the high-performance decisions in dynamic situations live.

The bottom line here is that this "risk management" line moves: it depends on all of the factors involved in flight, including pilot, experience, aircraft, weather, location, conditions, maintenance, purpose of the flight, and the list goes on. The skill is in knowing what risk to accept on which occasion, and that it is, in fact, okay to accept risk when we decide to do anything at all in an aircraft.

Excellent summation sir.
 
What I do know is that if a company (in the lower 48) had two fatals in a year, they probably would have had (already) an emergency revocation of their Air Carrier Certificate.
While I agree with you, you're deflecting from your previous post which was a complete non sequitur. Videoing off airport technique in a super cub has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons that Hageland has had 2 fatals and 2 more hull losses in the last year or so. I don't work the and my information is all third hand so I'm not comfortable talking smack about them in the open forum here but if you are actually professionally interested in what I believe some of the factors may be behind this recent streak I'd be more than happy to open a dialogue via pm. If all you're interested in doing is crowing about how we are a bunch of dangerous cowboys up here and offering us opinions formed in a completely different operational environment then I'm not interested in listening.
 
While I agree with you, you're deflecting from your previous post which was a complete non sequitur. Videoing off airport technique in a super cub has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons that Hageland has had 2 fatals and 2 more hull losses in the last year or so.

Fine, I can relate the super cub video back to my point as well.

Saying, "hey watch this" while you knowingly video tape it makes me cringe. I would say it also leads to risky behavioral tendencies. Of course not everyone who videotapes themselves is unsafe, but sometimes modesty is the best form of professionalism.


I don't work the and my information is all third hand so I'm not comfortable talking smack about them in the open forum here but if you are actually professionally interested in what I believe some of the factors may be behind this recent streak I'd be more than happy to open a dialogue via pm.

I am not "talking smack", I am pointing out that four hull losses in a year (my mistake on the number of fatals) raises a lot of questions.

If all you're interested in doing is crowing about how we are a bunch of dangerous cowboys up here and offering us opinions formed in a completely different operational environment then I'm not interested in listening.

Different segments of the industry can learn from one another more often than not. So if you or I don't listen then we may be missing out on a learning opportunity.
 
Are you saying that if I see something that concerns me from a safety standpoint I shouldn't bring it forward for discussion on here?
What I am saying is that you have an extremely narrowed minded point of view. Your experience in aviation and especially in safely is also limited, even though you like to believe it is not. That simply is the reality of truth. You refuse to be educated on any level by anyone and dismiss those with far more knowledge and experience, on a regular basis. You will argue the same points hundreds of times on dozens of threads, to no avail. You consider yourself to be an expert on types of flying that you have never done and know nothing about. You are only concerned with your own agenda and opinions no matter how skewed and incorrect they may be. You build ridiculous bridges and conclusions that don't even make sense to a sane person, just as you tried to do above with the issues at Hageland and the video you went ape doodle over of the Super Cub and bush flying. To you, everything is the same. You make no exceptions nor can you distinguish one entirely differently subject/issue/event from another.

How many times are you going to bring up the same drivel??? 10 times, 50 times a 100 times? Every single damn time someone posts a video or a photo that you freak out about? When will enough be enough? Nothing ever changes with you. It's your personal opinions. What have you said in the last two threads that you haven't already said in the threads about flying in Alaska, flying in the Military, flying at Air Shows, Air Races or in GA threads? NOTHING! How much can you continue to beat a subject to death on here and continue to be so clueless about what you are actually talking about???? What is the point? You haven't taught/educated anyone on anything. You aren't capable of that,frankly. Nor will you ever learn anything from what others have tried to tell you. Thus....the stalemate from hell part 100. This accomplishes nothing except to ruin some poor guy's thread.

You cannot even discuss/debate these subjects on your own merits, knowledge or experience. You had to reach out to the Attorney on here and that got you no where. Then in desperation you start tagging Mike (who you have unbelievably had the gall to argue with and challenge about safety and accident investigations in the past) and Doug for support because you are floundering. You do this often in your debates. You can't hold up your own often ridiculous positions so you start looking for/tagging others to come to your rescue and bail you out. You do this on a myriad of subjects.

Funny you mention "learning opportunity" above. You will never learn anything from anyone on here. Ever. You already know it all. Everyone else who disagrees with you on here is always wrong. This is never going to change.
 
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Absolutely. It's pretty easy to tell who has actual insight and experience with aviation safety around here.

We actually all have insight and experience around here that we can contribute. People like to dismiss the counter views on a variety of topics which while usually harmless can be counterproductive to safety on those topics.
 
I am not "talking smack", I am pointing out that four hull losses in a year (my mistake on the number of fatals) raises a lot of questions.
No doubt. It has raised a lot of questions. And things have been changing based on my limited time in Bethel. If the weather is marginal our Capstone screen is empty. Except for the 208s, PA31s, and F406s. All the IFR aircraft are still flying, but the 207s arent going anywhere.


Different segments of the industry can learn from one another more often than not. So if you or I don't listen then we may be missing out on a learning opportunity.
I absolutely agree.

Any time you want to come up and ride along on us you are more than welcome too. I would love to show you some of the operational challenges we run into up here.
 
We actually all have insight and experience around here that we can contribute. People like to dismiss the counter views on a variety of topics which while usually harmless can be counterproductive to safety on those topics.
Except that you ignore, dismiss and ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with you. Again, you are not an expert on aviation safety. You have your limited experience to go by, your opinions and that's it. Try to accept that. It is the truth. What is really counterproductive, is your continued recalcitrant attitude.
 
You know @A Life Aloft , I'm not going to respond to your arrogant, baseless attack on me. If that is what you need to post to make you feel better about yourself, well good for you.
 
No doubt. It has raised a lot of questions.

Excellent. What are they doing about it?

[quite]And things have been changing based on my limited time in Bethel. If the weather is marginal our Capstone screen is empty. Except for the 208s, PA31s, and F406s. All the IFR aircraft are still flying, but the 207s arent going anywhere.[/quote]

That is great they are changing their operations to fit the weather you guys see up there.



Any time you want to come up and ride along on us you are more than welcome too. I would love to show you some of the operational challenges we run into up here.

I would love to see your operational challenges. From your pictures on here and Facebook your approach is (in my mind) the right one to mitigating the risks.
 
You know @A Life Aloft , I'm not going to respond to your arrogant, baseless attack on me. If that is what you need to post to make you feel better about yourself, well good for you.
Ummmmm.....You just responded. Arrogant??? Look in the mirror if you want to see the poster boy for arrogance on this form. You continue to lecture others on here as if you are the end all be all authority of every subject you post in. It's gotten beyond old. You don't even see the way you talk down to others on here on a daily basis. Baseless? Read your responses.

With all the videos, shows, books, threads and blogs that I have read for years about flying in Alaska and especially bush work, I might know about 1% of what flying in AK is like compared to what the pilots who actually fly there for a living know. You? Zero. Yet you sit here and lecture the aviators who do this and have done so for years. THAT is the epitome of arrogance and smugness. You presume to know more than they do and you have done this since day one. You have done the same thing with Military pilots on here.

How do you feel about airshows? Lots of risk-taking, lots of video, lots of "hey watch this".
You probably don't want to know.

The static displays and flybys are fine, but once more develops from that, I think it's an unnecessary risk.

Static displays? Seriously? Why not just go a museum then. You can sit at any airport and watch planes "fly by". If you have issues with air shows, bush flying, air races, some types of military flying, some GA flying or whatever, then stay home and do what you consider to be fun and safe.....vacuuming.

Don't ever fly without glass, don't ever fly a warbird, don't ever fly anything with a radial engine, never take an aerobatics course, don't ever fly in the bush, don't ever fly a seaplane, don't ever have fun in a Super Club,don't ever challenge yourself even in a SIM let alone in the air. Just vacuum and lecture others about the subjects that you know next to nothing about or have limited experience in. Lord help you in a serious event when you have to rely on skill, experience and think outside the box, attempt what was never written in any manual or learned in any course. You'll be screwed.

You can't even let others who have done or enjoy these things have their say or pleasure can you? You just have to pipe up with the usual personal gibberish. It's not for you to decide what risk or even safety means/is defined/or is accomplished for others.
 
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