Asiana officially blames crew for flt 214...and the autothrottle.

[Vector4Food]

: 1) those who wanted nothing to do with it; 2) those who used it as it was intended while maintaining their ability to do it "the old fashioned way;" and, 3) those who relied on technology to the detriment of their basic ability to fly the airplane. e.

Just thought if throw a somewhat related comment in here.

The ATC world is almost identical

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

However, there's a world of difference between "Gear" and "Speedbrakes aren't decelerating the aircraft to my liking, should I lower the landing gear now for drag so I can get below flap extension speed?"

Are you saying you said "gear" to the CA or you said option two "speedbrakes aren't.... [filler]" ?

In my career as FO the one thing I've learned after flying with many of "those" guys is I now find my self verbalizing these kinds of things. In the case you mentioned, I don't think I'd get away with just a gear down. Usually I have to preface it with the second part.

Another example, coming into 19L SFO on the arrival, around 12k feet I pull speed 250 and pull alt for open descent. "Why did you do that?!" I get from the other guy. I look at him and say "okay" and push the speed back and altitude back. Mind you, the airplane still did the same thing. Slows to 250 and descent at 500-1000 fpm. We were going to 5000 feet without restrictions so what difference does it make when you are already close to the airport. Our policy has us select speed anyway below 10k when speed constraints have been met in order to activate approach.

 

[BobDDuck]

Our policy has us select speed anyway below 10k when speed constraints have been met in order to activate approach.

Great... Now @Seggy is going to be all up in here talking about how great Boeing is.

 

[dasleben]

Are you saying you said "gear" to the CA or you said option two "speedbrakes aren't.... [filler]" ?

In my career as FO the one thing I've learned after flying with many of "those" guys is I now find my self verbalizing these kinds of things. In the case you mentioned, I don't think I'd get away with just a gear down. Usually I have to preface it with the second part.

Another example, coming into 19L SFO on the arrival, around 12k feet I pull speed 250 and pull alt for open descent. "Why did you do that?!" I get from the other guy. I look at him and say "okay" and push the speed back and altitude back. Mind you, the airplane still did the same thing. Slows to 250 and descent at 500-1000 fpm. We were going to 5000 feet without restrictions so what difference does it make when you are already close to the airport. Our policy has us select speed anyway below 10k when speed constraints have been met in order to activate approach.

I honestly stopped explaining what I was doing ("option 2"). Too many people felt I was asking permission, rather than simply keeping them in the loop. Hazard of being the young, junior guy in the right seat, maybe. For the most part, I just do it (and simply verbalize it rather than explain) or call for what I want now.

 

[Seggy]

Great... Now @Seggy is going to be all up in here talking about how great Boeing is.

Hey, as long as they admit the need to ask permission to land their airplane, I'm happy with that.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I honestly stopped explaining what I was doing ("option 2"). Too many people felt I was asking permission, rather than simply keeping them in the loop. Hazard of being the young, junior guy in the right seat, maybe. For the most part, I just do it (and simply verbalize it rather than explain) or call for what I want now.

I agree, that's what I've switched to as well.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I find it rather ludicrous that we've been moved to discuss the relative merits of authothrottles by Asiana's rather pathetic attempt to deflect blame. People land with and without them all day every day at all kinds of airports all over the world. By all appearances, both the people with them and those without them manage to monitor their airspeed and land without too much trouble. I mean, it's all a bit Kafakaesque, isn't it? Like, once we've all agreed to the notion that three highly experienced pilots can't manage to land a plane on a huge runway in near-perfect conditions without systems most airplanes don't have, we can REALLY get to the bottom of this! It's laughable. Although a lot of people don't seem to be laughing. Why do you suppose that might be?

As much of a hater as I am, I wish I had them from time to time. Long about the 11th hour of duty, usually.

Yup!

You undo what I just did, you're going to inherit the airplane.

I asked for the gear early a few weeks ago as the airplane was in a high energy state and the captain asked "Gear? Already?"

"Yes, gear down please"

"Are you sure?"

*CLUNK*

"I got it myself"

(redacted) paddles (actual speedbrakes) and redneck speedbrakes (landing gear) deployed.

Now that I work where you do, I enjoy hand flying RNAV departures. Previous company it was frowned upon. Which made for many a boring flight departing DFW. Autopilot on at 500' (previous equipment), FLC (which climbed out at 240) then it was all monitoring.

Which is odd, as I seem to remember "our" previous employer overlaying RNAV DP tracks and getting some very odd results depending on the airplane and whether or not the automation was on. (I always flew them on the flight director, by hand, to 10,000, observing speed restrictions. Nobody I flew with had a problem with that in DFW.)

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

There's a reason we aren't allowed to use FLCH inside the FAF. It introduces the threat of becoming slow all while thinking that your auto thrust is managing your speed.

I'm a big fan of automation, as it reduces workload and increases your situational awareness. But I'm also a big fan of flying the damn plane when the automation isn't helping.

 

[Patrick]

In my short time flying airplanes with autothrottles I've witnessed the aircraft get dangerously slow pretty rapidly when clicking off the autopilot in FLCH mode about 4 times in a year so far. I remember it happening in the sim. In IOE and even on the line without fully understanding why. Sure I could spit out the book definitions of the difference between speed on thrust and speed on elevators but it wasn't until the Asiana crash and subsequent ASAP committee safety newsletter (yeah I read them) that highlighted the specific scenario that I fully understood the relationship. Apparently this issue deserves a little more attention in training.

Just a few trips ago I had a captain click off the autopilot while doing a visual approach and forgot he was in flight level change mode. The speed bled off until I asked him if he wanted a different mode. After an "oh crap" moment he asked for vertical speed. It happens. And I can totally see it happen to a pilot with no experience with autothrottles. I wonder the outcome had that newsletter never highlighted that SPECIFIC technical scenario.

I personally would rather see initial training in transport category jets focus more on the basics of flying a transport cat airplanes then running a QRH over and over. I really do think training the very basics like how to go Up, Down, Left, Right, and how to decide and the consequences for each Mode would go much farther in controlling the aircraft fundamentally.

Fully agree with this.

 

[DE727UPS]

There's a reason we aren't allowed to use FLCH inside the FAF. It introduces the threat of becoming slow all while thinking that your auto thrust is managing your speed.

Also, because FLCH will try to attain the speed in the window without regard to sink rate, it's not a good mode to use when close to the dirt.

 

[Dugie8]

FLCH is basically a "speed controlled by pitch" mode, correct?

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

FLCH is basically a "speed controlled by pitch" mode, correct?

Yes. In E190 Lingo, it's "Speed on Elevator" meaning the aircraft keeps a constant power setting and modulates pitch to maintain speed. (Climb or descent)

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Also, because FLCH will try to attain the speed in the window without regard to sink rate, it's not a good mode to use when close to the dirt.

FPA will try to attain the flight path angle without regard for descent rate, yet we use that inside the FAF all the time. Don't try to find logic in aviation.

I guess if you're going fast enough that a 3 degree (ish) rate makes you unstable, you're aware of that already.

 

[tonyw]

What did you expect from a flight crew named Bang Ding Ow and Ho Lee F*k with relief pilots named Sum Ting Wong and Wi Tu Low?

 

[dasleben]

FPA will try to attain the flight path angle without regard for descent rate, yet we use that inside the FAF all the time. Don't try to find logic in aviation.

I guess if you're going fast enough that a 3 degree (ish) rate makes you unstable, you're aware of that already.

The issue with Boeing FLCH inside the FAF is that FLCH deactivates the autothrottle servos (THR HOLD). Unlike VNAV where the TLs will come back alive if you get slow, they won't do it in FLCH. As one poster mentioned, if you're hand flying, you need to be aware that the autothrottles would be providing no protection. Best to just turn everything off at that point and fly errplanes.

 

[BobDDuck]

The issue with Boeing FLCH inside the FAF is that FLCH deactivates the autothrottle servos (THR HOLD). Unlike VNAV where the TLs will come back alive if you get slow, they won't do it in FLCH. As one poster mentioned, if you're hand flying, you need to be aware that the autothrottles would be providing no protection. Best to just turn everything off at that point and fly errplanes.

The 717 (#notreallyaboeing has become my new favorite hashtag) does this on takeoff at 80 knots by putting the autothrottles in CLAMP (which is actually unclamping the servo) so you can adjust the power as needed. The only other time it does this is if you are hand flying in "speed on pitch" mode (similar to the speed on elevator that @PhilosopherPilot mentioned). That said, there is still a low speed wake up that will power up the engines if you get near the stall speed.

I'd say that about 95% of the guys out here dump the auto throttles either before or at the same time they get rid of the autopilot during the descent and landing. The guy I flew with yesterday is actually one of the only ones I've seen that often leaves the autothrottles on all the way down to the pavement.

 

[mshunter]

In my short time flying airplanes with autothrottles I've witnessed the aircraft get dangerously slow pretty rapidly when clicking off the autopilot in FLCH mode about 4 times in a year so far. I remember it happening in the sim. In IOE and even on the line without fully understanding why. Sure I could spit out the book definitions of the difference between speed on thrust and speed on elevators but it wasn't until the Asiana crash and subsequent ASAP committee safety newsletter (yeah I read them) that highlighted the specific scenario that I fully understood the relationship. Apparently this issue deserves a little more attention in training.

Just a few trips ago I had a captain click off the autopilot while doing a visual approach and forgot he was in flight level change mode. The speed bled off until I asked him if he wanted a different mode. After an "oh crap" moment he asked for vertical speed. It happens. And I can totally see it happen to a pilot with no experience with autothrottles. I wonder the outcome had that newsletter never highlighted that SPECIFIC technical scenario.

I personally would rather see initial training in transport category jets focus more on the basics of flying a transport cat airplanes then running a QRH over and over. I really do think training the very basics like how to go Up, Down, Left, Right, and how to decide and the consequences for each Mode would go much farther in controlling the aircraft fundamentally.

The difference between what you just described and what happened to Asiana is you were actually watching what the airplane was doing, and stepped in and did some of that pilot stuff.

 

[mshunter]

I honestly stopped explaining what I was doing ("option 2"). Too many people felt I was asking permission, rather than simply keeping them in the loop. Hazard of being the young, junior guy in the right seat, maybe. For the most part, I just do it (and simply verbalize it rather than explain) or call for what I want now.

Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission sometimes.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yup! You undo what I just did, you're going to inherit the airplane. I asked for the gear early a few weeks ago as the airplane was in a high energy state and the captain asked "Gear? Already?" "Yes, gear down please" "Are you sure?" *CLUNK* "I got it myself"

I think I might have started cheering if I was on the jumpseat.

Nothing worse than an "other seat flyer." If you want to fly it, fly it. Otherwise, we're both qualified, so if you say it's my leg, then it my frickin' leg. Thankfully I haven't run into these guys at AirTran. Pinnacle was chock full of them, though. It made a 4 day trip unbearable.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That said, there is still a low speed wake up that will power up the engines if you get near the stall speed.

Another reason that McBoeing is superior, @Seggy.

I'd say that about 95% of the guys out here dump the auto throttles either before or at the same time they get rid of the autopilot during the descent and landing. The guy I flew with yesterday is actually one of the only ones I've seen that often leaves the autothrottles on all the way down to the pavement.

It's odd how different airlines flying the exact same equipment can have such different cultures on this stuff. It's a really rare pilot here at the Tran who turns off the autothrottles at all on an approach, including visuals. They're usually on until the pavement. I only turn them off if it's incredibly gusty and I'm spending all of my time overriding them.