Asiana officially blames crew for flt 214...and the autothrottle.

[Patrick]

I've got thousands of hours in small jets ranging from citations and lears to CRJ 700s. When flying an approach (visual or otherwise), I just don't see what the big deal is with managing power manually, particularly when you have trend vectors.

Can one of you Boeing or Airbus guys explain to me why ATs are almost considered essential to a lot of pilots in the "bigger" stuff? Clearly I'm not understanding something... Not wanting to babysit the thing over NAT tracks, yeah I get it. But a visual? Why would anybody even bother with ATs for something like that?

I recently had a chat with a guy I work with, who spent 15 (or more, maybe) years flying the 747 and 777. We somehow got onto this topic (I've only flown biz jets and "light" turboprops (nothing over 20,000lb), with me asking the exact same question of "what's the big deal with AT's in heavy iron?"

I guess in my head I had never put two and two together, but basically, he was explaining to me that on stuff that big, that flies legs that long, with some shorter/ lighter legs thrown in as well, that not only does your ref speed vary considerably, but the power required to hold said ref speed varies considerably as well. It's not like you can say "just set it around 75% N1 and you'll be close" etc. Using the AT's allows you to set whatever speed you need, and it keeps you there without fuss.

I'd imagine that if you have AT's, you're obviously still keeping an eye on what's going on (like any coupled approach), and if the automation isn't doing what you want it to, you click it off and fly the airplane.

 

[RRPower]

There is also one guy I know for sure will most likely reach up and hit the ATHR button when you click it off.

That would not end well. If you want to be a doucher and play with my MCP just because you suck, you will buy yourself a discussion on the ground. It used to irk me as an FO when CAs would pull weird stunts like that...but since being a CA, it has really hit me as to how disrespectful that is. I would NEVER just reach up and do crap while my FO is flying, like selecting a different mode or yanking throttles or whatever (yes, I've seen a that). The only time I even suggest something to my FOs is if I am legitimately concerned that if left unresolved it would lead to paperwork or bent metal. I will at least let you try whatever it is you want to do (A/P off, FD off, raw data, whatevs) and if you start sucking it up and I can see that's going to be the norm, then we can discuss other options. If you can't act like a professional then I have zero use for flying with you.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I recently had a chat with a guy I work with, who spent 15 (or more, maybe) years flying the 747 and 777. We somehow got onto this topic (I've only flown biz jets and "light" turboprops (nothing over 20,000lb), with me asking the exact same question of "what's the big deal with AT's in heavy iron?"

I guess in my head I had never put two and two together, but basically, he was explaining to me that on stuff that big, that flies legs that long, with some shorter/ lighter legs thrown in as well, that not only does your ref speed vary considerably, but the power required to hold said ref speed varies considerably as well. It's not like you can say "just set it around 75% N1 and you'll be close" etc. Using the AT's allows you to set whatever speed you need, and it keeps you there without fuss.

I'd imagine that if you have AT's, you're obviously still keeping an eye on what's going on (like any coupled approach), and if the automation isn't doing what you want it to, you click it off and fly the airplane.

High variability of N1's and weights goes for nearly all transport category jets, not just the big dogs. The ATs are there as a workload reduction, as simple as that. They work great, typically.... as long as you know what mode you're in.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I find it rather ludicrous that we've been moved to discuss the relative merits of authothrottles by Asiana's rather pathetic attempt to deflect blame. People land with and without them all day every day at all kinds of airports all over the world. By all appearances, both the people with them and those without them manage to monitor their airspeed and land without too much trouble. I mean, it's all a bit Kafakaesque, isn't it? Like, once we've all agreed to the notion that three highly experienced pilots can't manage to land a plane on a huge runway in near-perfect conditions without systems most airplanes don't have, we can REALLY get to the bottom of this! It's laughable. Although a lot of people don't seem to be laughing. Why do you suppose that might be?

 

[GypsyPilot]

I find it rather ludicrous that we've been moved to discuss the relative merits of authothrottles by Asiana's rather pathetic attempt to deflect blame. People land with and without them all day every day at all kinds of airports all over the world. By all appearances, both the people with them and those without them manage to monitor their airspeed and land without too much trouble. I mean, it's all a bit Kafakaesque, isn't it? Like, once we've all agreed to the notion that three highly experienced pilots can't manage to land a plane on a huge runway in near-perfect conditions without systems most airplanes don't have, we can REALLY get to the bottom of this! It's laughable. Although a lot of people don't seem to be laughing. Why do you suppose that might be?

That's exactly why I asked my question too Boris. I can't imagine these Asiana guys were this out of the loop all the time. No doubt fatigue from the long haul played part, but we've all been there (fatigue wise) at some point in our professional careers.

Like you, I'm just puzzled. But I also believe there must be something more to this, human factors wise. Personally I wonder if over reliance on automation isn't the issue... A nice day like that, it makes you wonder.

 

[Cptnchia]

Like peanuckle said, Delta is big on hand flying. The only time I ever land with ATs on is an auto land. When I turn the autopilot off, auto throttles are also off. If a captain subsequently turned them back on, I'd turn them off again. If he did it again, I'd give him the airplane and we'd have a discussion about PF/PM duties once on the ground. If I have placed the airplane in an unsafe position, then I expect him to react, just like I would if he was screwing up, but to overreact just because he is uncomfortable with his flying skills, no bueno.

 

[GypsyPilot]

That's pretty cool to hear that about Delta... Has that mindset always been there, or is it more recent? Do they even encourage hand flown (with the FD) RNAV departures? We often do that where I work, but I hear it's not allowed at most airlines.

 

[Cptnchia]

I hand fly most RNAV SIDS, however, there are a few that really require the AP, such as LHR, which have very tight noise tolerances.

 

[B767]

That's pretty cool to hear that about Delta... Has that mindset always been there, or is it more recent? Do they even encourage hand flown (with the FD) RNAV departures? We often do that where I work, but I hear it's not allowed at most airlines.

Now that I work where you do, I enjoy hand flying RNAV departures. Previous company it was frowned upon. Which made for many a boring flight departing DFW. Autopilot on at 500' (previous equipment), FLC (which climbed out at 240) then it was all monitoring.

 

[PilotDefenseAttorney]

I think the theory - or so I've been told - is that technology now malfunctions less often than pilots screw up. The problem is the reliability of technology can make us complacent. As a DPE I saw basically three kinds of pilots when it came to technology: 1) those who wanted nothing to do with it; 2) those who used it as it was intended while maintaining their ability to do it "the old fashioned way;" and, 3) those who relied on technology to the detriment of their basic ability to fly the airplane. Group (1) had no chance of success as a professional flying modern aircraft. But, unfortunately, as a CA I saw more than my share of pilots in the third category. And, I think some companies implicitly support such a mindset by not holding pilots accountable and by not supporting balanced proficiency, training, and operations. Admittedly, my experience is limited to light jet/135 operations, but to some degree, an airplane is an airplane.

 

[L-16B]

I've got thousands of hours in small jets ranging from citations and lears to CRJ 700s. When flying an approach (visual or otherwise), I just don't see what the big deal is with managing power manually, particularly when you have trend vectors.

Can one of you Boeing or Airbus guys explain to me why ATs are almost considered essential to a lot of pilots in the "bigger" stuff? Clearly I'm not understanding something... Not wanting to babysit the thing over NAT tracks, yeah I get it. But a visual? Why would anybody even bother with ATs for something like that?

I've flown with captains that won't let you turn the auto throttles off . Sad but true.

 

[derg]

Like peanuckle said, Delta is big on hand flying. The only time I ever land with ATs on is an auto land. When I turn the autopilot off, auto throttles are also off. If a captain subsequently turned them back on, I'd turn them off again. If he did it again, I'd give him the airplane and we'd have a discussion about PF/PM duties once on the ground. If I have placed the airplane in an unsafe position, then I expect him to react, just like I would if he was screwing up, but to overreact just because he is uncomfortable with his flying skills, no bueno.

Yup!

You undo what I just did, you're going to inherit the airplane.

I asked for the gear early a few weeks ago as the airplane was in a high energy state and the captain asked "Gear? Already?"

"Yes, gear down please"

"Are you sure?"

*CLUNK*

"I got it myself"

 

[Dugie8]

Yup!

You undo what I just did, you're going to inherit the airplane.

I asked for the gear early a few weeks ago as the airplane was in a high energy state and the captain asked "Gear? Already?"

"Yes, gear down please"

"Are you sure?"

*CLUNK*

"I got it myself"

Amateur.

/ducks

 

[derg]

Amateur.

/ducks

Not afraid to admit when I'm outside of my comfort zone!

They brought us in high and tight abeam the numbers, "ahem" called the airport in sight without conferring with me and our speed was high.

 

[Dugie8]

I love that one


/mic click

Airport in sight

/mic click


-sound of me blinking in confusion.

 

[dasleben]

Can one of you Boeing or Airbus guys explain to me why ATs are almost considered essential to a lot of pilots in the "bigger" stuff? Clearly I'm not understanding something... Not wanting to babysit the thing over NAT tracks, yeah I get it. But a visual? Why would anybody even bother with ATs for something like that?

"Essential" isn't the right word, but most people (including myself) tend to use them down to <500' when hand flying (or even 50'). Depends on a lot of things, but fatigue is a big part of it. Last leg on a 3 leg 2100-0700L duty "day," I leave everything hooked up until down low. I simply recognize that my scan isn't as fast as it could be if I was flying on the front side of the clock for a living. Obviously, if I find that I'm overriding a lot, I'll turn them off earlier.

And hell, I'm not afraid to admit that I use autothrottles on visuals. Works nice. Good for speed protection while you're busy.

@ChasenSFO: Boeing FLCH works nice. We use it just about every flight in the 767.

 

[mshunter]

Yup!

You undo what I just did, you're going to inherit the airplane.

I asked for the gear early a few weeks ago as the airplane was in a high energy state and the captain asked "Gear? Already?"

"Yes, gear down please"

"Are you sure?"

*CLUNK*

"I got it myself"

While I don't mind at all getting tips on how to operate the airplane and all of it's electrons, if I ask for something, or when I do ask for something I don't get it because the guy in the other seat feels like they can do it better, or it's wrong, "your controls, I obviously have no clue on what I'm doing here, and you do, so it's all you."

We can discuss this on the ground, at the gate, when we aren't moving through the air at 250kts or better, when it's safe to have an "argument." Feel free to have me removed from your airplane if you feel like it's that big of an issue.

Side story. There is a guy at the company here who is on a lot of people no fly list, so he ends up flying with a lot of reserve guys. Quite honestly, I love flying with him. He stays on top of the airplane, and his FO's. I learn a tremendous amount from him every time I fly with him and love it. But, he's constructive about it, and doesn't mind explaining it to me when the time is right. I always look forward to the trip when I see him on my schedule.

 

[derg]

I don't mind "tips" at all.

However, there's a world of difference between "Gear" and "Speedbrakes aren't decelerating the aircraft to my liking, should I lower the landing gear now for drag so I can get below flap extension speed?"

 

[dbrault17]

In my short time flying airplanes with autothrottles I've witnessed the aircraft get dangerously slow pretty rapidly when clicking off the autopilot in FLCH mode about 4 times in a year so far. I remember it happening in the sim. In IOE and even on the line without fully understanding why. Sure I could spit out the book definitions of the difference between speed on thrust and speed on elevators but it wasn't until the Asiana crash and subsequent ASAP committee safety newsletter (yeah I read them) that highlighted the specific scenario that I fully understood the relationship. Apparently this issue deserves a little more attention in training.

Just a few trips ago I had a captain click off the autopilot while doing a visual approach and forgot he was in flight level change mode. The speed bled off until I asked him if he wanted a different mode. After an "oh crap" moment he asked for vertical speed. It happens. And I can totally see it happen to a pilot with no experience with autothrottles. I wonder the outcome had that newsletter never highlighted that SPECIFIC technical scenario.

I personally would rather see initial training in transport category jets focus more on the basics of flying a transport cat airplanes then running a QRH over and over. I really do think training the very basics like how to go Up, Down, Left, Right, and how to decide and the consequences for each Mode would go much farther in controlling the aircraft fundamentally.

 

[BobDDuck]

I love that one


/mic click

Airport in sight

/mic click


-sound of me blinking in confusion.

I hate when that happens.