Learning To Fly In A Jet

C

CatPatRoll

Well-Known Member
I recently got a call from a good friend, let's call him Steve. Steve is an older gentlemen (late 40's) who currently has ATP minimums, but no multi-engine ticket. His goal is to end up at a regional. Steve current got a new job flying a piper arrow for some other gentlemen, and makes more than what you would as a third year first officer.

The phone call I received from Steve entailed what would my personal minimums be flying a piper arrow? ( Some background about myself..I'm currently flying 121 at a regional. Prior to my current job, I flew freight for three years, and I was a flight instructor prior to that for two years. I currently have over 4,000TT with two types. ) I told Steve whatever you're comfortable flying in, and as long as it does not exceed any limitations such as cross wind components. The winds were expected to be gusting over 30 knots at his destination tomorrow. From the sound of his voice, he was trying to find every excuse to not go without sounding like a girl. ( no offense to the females on here ). I then said whatever you're not comfortable in, don't get pressured into not going. I then said personally I would have no problem with it.

Steve never enjoyed flying in IMC. He currently has five hours total in actual IMC. Every time I invited Steve to go flying in IMC conditions, he found an excuse to no go. Steve was nervous about obtaining IFR clearances, and IFR in general, asking questions that a newly IFR certified pilot should know. I've suggested to Steve that I have connections at three 135 airlines that currently fly single engine aircraft, and told him I would walk in his resume. He liked the idea, then found every excuse to not go.

It's Steves belief that he can obtain "experience", and learn IFR flying right seat in a jet. As a left seater, this angered me. Learning basic IFR knowledge should NOT happen in a jet that is moving 500 knots with 50 passengers in the back. Too many times have I had pilots that were a hazard versus help in the right seat. If you have trouble with obtaining clearances, you do NOT belong in a jet. Period.

As a flight instructor, I put a big emphasis on real world experience. I've been know for taking students out in actual IMC, and having them perform stalls, doing engine shut downs etc. ( All while on a legal flight plan of course). I've made my multi engine students take a VMC demo too far. And you better believe I flew with my students at-least once when the winds were above 25 knots and right at their respectable cross wind limitation. Why? Because that is the stuff that will kill you. Many times I have met instructors with hundreds of hours afraid of stalls, wind, and spins. That is unacceptable. Period. Could many accidents and incidents,, including 3407, been prevented using this ideology? I believe so.

If Steve cannot make a decision on weather or not to fly in 30 knot winds, and cannot assess his own skill level, he doesn't belong in a jet, and will make a dangerous captain one day - should be get through IOE and survive the line.

Thoughts and opinions welcomed.
 
If he's scared of IFR, I can't imagine he'd be able to pass an ATP/Type ride. Ask him how he feels about a single engine hand flown non-precision approach.... to a circle if we're not talking 121.... at an approach speed faster than the arrow cruises.
 
You don't stick a 15 year old in the driver's seat of a Greyhound, this guy has no business in an RJ until he's good and comfortable in "less than ideal" meteorological conditions.
 
Some guys I know worked with a guy who had some similar attributes (second career, seemed nervous about weather) who wound up VFR into IMC CFIT and killing himself.
 
Usually guys like Steve get weeded out before too long. Hopefully its before some one gets hurt
 
Just re-affirms my point that some pilots who claim to be "conservative" and "careful" are actually a huge danger to themselves and everyone who flys with them. I consider myself conservative and have made many no-go decisions based on safety and legality concerns at my current job, but Im also comfortable operating the airplane that I am paid to fly to the extent that is safe and legal for the operations we conduct.
 
Prepare, analyze, decide, execute. In that order. I did my CFI ride in an Arrow on a 29G34KT day, not just because our ops manual at the time allowed me to, but because I felt that if I couldn't fly to Commercial PTS in those conditions, I had no business being entrusted with a student in the other seat. If someone tells me the wind is going to be gusting over 30 and they're flying a Cherokee, my next question is "Is it down the pipe or not?" There are too many factors that weigh in to just look at the raw numbers. It blows my mind the number of students/CFIs I've talked to in my current environment who will happily go launch off runway 35 on a day when it's 31018G24KT, but are scared stiff or prevented from flying when it's 35019G26KT. All they see is the speed without a second thought to "what does it actually mean?"

To the OP: you sound like my kind of instructor, and a lot like many of the instructors I was fortunate enough to train under. Unfortunately, I fear we're a dying breed...
 
I definitely agree. There needs to be a healthy level of respect/fear for the unknown as an inexperienced pilot, but it sounds like your buddy "Steve," has an overly irrational fear or complete inability to evaluate/assess his own personal skills as a pilot and as a decision maker.

The mindset of "Oh well I'll just learn all that stuff when I get to the airlines," is an incredibly naive and dangerous mindset. As a flight instructor, I have really begun to find what it really means to be a flight instructor. I've started to figure out what it truly means to be PIC, and be in charge of the safe operation of an aircraft. The experience is not something you can put off, and expect everything to just fall into place all of a sudden.

It's like what I tell my students when it comes to learning to fly. "Flying is like a sport. You need to practice, and study. The best sportsmen in the world didn't get to where they are all of a sudden, it took practice."
 
DhruvK said:
It blows my mind the number of students/CFIs I've talked to in my current environment who will happily go launch off runway 35 on a day when it's 31018G24KT, but are scared stiff or prevented from flying when it's 35019G26KT. All they see is the speed without a second thought to "what does it actually mean?"
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When my students are comfortable with winds 10-15 knots, and it's gusting up to 17 or 18 knots I just put my hand out in front of my face and blow a breath of air across my hand. "That's about how much more wind is out there than what you say you're "comfortable with." Let's go fly!" Even if it's way above what they're "comfortable with," in most cases, we're still going. :D
 
DhruvK said:
Prepare, analyze, decide, execute. In that order. I did my CFI ride in an Arrow on a 29G34KT day, not just because our ops manual at the time allowed me to, but because I felt that if I couldn't fly to Commercial PTS in those conditions, I had no business being entrusted with a student in the other seat.
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This is why I wonder why people sweat recurrent/checkrides. I mean we do this almost every day, to the exact standards that you're held to in a checkride. Anyone who flies the line should be comfortable just showing up tomorrow and taking a ride with a DPE or Fed regardless of the weather. Nothing should be different.
 
Hmmm... it must not be windy very often in other parts of the country. 30+ knots is regular weather in Colorado/Wyoming.
 
Zondaracer said:
Hmmm... it must not be windy very often in other parts of the country. 30+ knots is regular weather in Colorado/Wyoming.
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47601510.jpg
 
CatPatRoll said:
As a flight instructor, I put a big emphasis on real world experience. I've been know for taking students out in actual IMC, and having them perform stalls, doing engine shut downs etc. ( All while on a legal flight plan of course). I've made my multi engine students take a VMC demo too far. And you better believe I flew with my students at-least once when the winds were above 25 knots and right at their respectable cross wind limitation. Why? Because that is the stuff that will kill you. Many times I have met instructors with hundreds of hours afraid of stalls, wind, and spins. That is unacceptable. Period. Could many accidents and incidents,, including 3407, been prevented using this ideology? I believe so.
If Steve cannot make a decision on weather or not to fly in 30 knot winds, and cannot assess his own skill level, he doesn't belong in a jet, and will make a dangerous captain one day - should be get through IOE and survive the line.
Thoughts and opinions welcomed.
Click to expand...

Since you asked for thoughts:
1. Define "taking a VMC demo too far"?
2. From a risk management standpoint, I would suggest that stalls/engine shut down work be performed while under a good hood (A REAL one, not one the student can cheat), but I would try and avoid practicing maneuvers like that in IMC - there's very little additional benefit to be gained by doing it in "real" IMC, and a lot more risk.
As for 3407, you mention a certain ideology that would have prevented the accident. What, specifically, is that ideology? Can you prove that it would have prevented the accident, and why do you think the NTSB neglected to cite this in their final accident report?
 
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