Has it come to this?

In the past 18 hrs four (4) good friends and pilots have recommended:

Great Lakes (3)
Silver (2)
GoJets (1)
Mesa (1)

Has it really come to this? All 4 are here on JC but I'm friends will all outside of here as well.

Crap

Good advice. I'd recommend the same. The pilots I knew at Great Lakes, Silver, GoJets, and Mesa have all upgraded and are interviewing with majors whereas those regional pilots that went to "quality" regionals like American Eagle, ExpressJet, Mesaba, SkyWest, are 5-7+ year FOs. Having no turbine PIC shuts many doors including SWA and FDX. Also, not having that time makes it that much harder to get hired at a legacy.

My advice to anyone going for a regional would be to pick the one that is considered the crappier one, get in, learn, upgrade, get your time, and get out. Regionals are not meant to be a career stop. You won't gain anything for your career going to a "quality" regional.
 
Mike, you are saying some good things but you are being WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to preachy on some pretty significant points.

I cringe when you are saying 'hitting the books as much as you could'. Training is studying smarter not harder. There is a lot of mandated 'fluff' in a 121 ground school (can one say PRM approaches) and it is key for the student to know what the 'fluff' is to take note of it, but really focus on the important items. I think you would be amazed on what good 121 ground schools are really looking for. That is how does one react in the crew concept, which you haven't mentioned yet.

Preachy? You condensenion yet again aside Mark, I have been on both the civilian side as well as the military side, and am well aware of what and how CRM works. Yes, the crew concept is important. But without the individual(s) being up to par, the crew won't succeed. You forget, I've been doing the business of aviation just a tad longer than you have.

While the individual is largely responsible for their own success (or failure) the crew concept is fundamental to see how the applicant will do on the line. I am not to familiar with what happened with @ComplexHiAv8r but I can say he probably had no problem with the book knowledge. He probably had issues adjusting to the crew environment which does happen. I think when @ComplexHiAv8r gets into that next simulator he will be better prepared to handle the crew concept after his learning experience at XJT. Mike, you've never mentioned the crew concept in any of your posts, just the individual responsibility which is understandable with your military background. I am not downplaying the individual responsibility at all, I just hope you understand that if someone is reading what you are saying and taking it literally to 'hit the books harder' they may be missing out on going over flows in a group with beer and pizza or studying in a group for their oral (you learn a ton with those group study sessions) and may be more worried about GPS Satellite Constellations, PRM Approaches, and a bunch of other crap that doesn't matter.

I haven't gotten to the crew concept, because again, my focus is the individual first, THEN how he/she contributes to the crew. The crew concept won't matter if the individual brings nothing to the game. Going over the items with the crew is part of that. Granted Mark, if I have to dumb it down that much for someone to understand studying individually as well as everything else involved, then you are really redefining the concept of "lowest common denominator".

Again Mark, military background has nothing to do with this, as I came from a civilian as well as military background, and fly/have flown crew aircraft in both realms. You've come from one side only, yet seem arrogant enough to tell me what I do or don't know.

Also, my place (and others) give positive space tickets home on the weekend. There is a reason for that. One needs the time at home to decompress from training. Yes, one needs to maybe take an hour or two to study at home (I did), but going home and relaxing for a few days is also fundamental for having a clear mind.

Really? I hadn't at all thought of that. What a concept that has never ever occurred to me (yes, sarcasm)

However when one is on the rocks, or is at the edge or pass fail; a vacation involving travel, when there's the possibility of not making it back on time to training due to loads, WX, whatever; and you risk making that trip home, your final one. Your call.
 
I was just thumbing through a magazine (no, not AARP) and took note of some words in an article that I think pertain to a lot of what we have all been talking about lately. It said: "One of the biggest difficulties in life is looking through the world we are in to the world we want to go and to manage both at the same time."

So true!
 
Taylor-swift-laughing-gif-taylor-swift-30258989-500-245.gif


I mean, seriously.

Yeah, you're right. Harvard isn't letting a bunch of minorities and poor people in. It's still the rich white guy's club. :sarcasm:
 
Preachy? You condensenion yet again aside Mark, I have been on both the civilian side as well as the military side, and am well aware of what and how CRM works.

You missed my point completely. As I said, you were saying some good things, but you missed the point that in a 121 training cycle it is studying smarter, not harder. You are given a lot of information that is only semi important but someone in the FAA wants it covered, so you cover it.

Also, the last two 121 training cycles I went through, CRM was graded heavier than the book knowledge you've been harping on.

Yes, the crew concept is important. But without the individual(s) being up to par, the crew won't succeed.

I don't disagree with this and my previous statement covered this.

You forget, I've been doing the business of aviation just a tad longer than you have.

Oh, this is an interesting statement. Remember a good CRM practice isn't to discount others just because you may have been doing something longer than the other person.


I haven't gotten to the crew concept, because again, my focus is the individual first, THEN how he/she contributes to the crew.

Do most failures in a 121 training environment occur in the oral/written test or in the sim environment?

The crew concept won't matter if the individual brings nothing to the game.

I get that, see above question.

Going over the items with the crew is part of that. Granted Mark, if I have to dumb it down that much for someone to understand studying individually as well as everything else involved, then you are really redefining the concept of "lowest common denominator".

Going it over with the crew is a HUGE part of it. MUCH more important than "hitting the books hard". I just wanted to make that crystal clear.

Again Mark, military background has nothing to do with this, as I came from a civilian as well as military background, and fly/have flown crew aircraft in both realms. You've come from one side only, yet seem arrogant enough to tell me what I do or don't know.

It's not arrogance, it's the fact that in my opinion, you are leaving out some pretty important points.

If one goes into a 121 training cycle focused heavily on themselves you are going to struggle. Yes, you have to bring your A game, but the crew concept is as, if not more fundamental to successful completion than you are making it out to be. If you have a good sim partner they can carry a lot of the weight where you are weak and vice versa. That NEEDS to be talked about and it wasn't happening.


Really? I hadn't at all thought of that. What a concept that has never ever occurred to me (yes, sarcasm)

I'm just trying to help others out.

However when one is on the rocks, or is at the edge or pass fail; a vacation involving travel, when there's the possibility of not making it back on time to training due to loads, WX, whatever; and you risk making that trip home, your final one. Your call.

I agree completely with this.
 
In the past 18 hrs four (4) good friends and pilots have recommended:

Great Lakes (3)
Silver (2)
GoJets (1)
Mesa (1)

Has it really come to this? All 4 are here on JC but I'm friends will all outside of here as well.

Crap

And as I alluded to before, posts like this one aren't going to help your cause when you're seeking employment with a regional still. For all you know, these four bridges may already be burnt from post #1 here of this thread, depending on who has seen them. All kinds post and lurk here.

Remember the deal about anonymity and the internet. As well as the idea of perceptions.
 
Numerous studies have shown that SAT scores correlate incredibly well with future earnings. A person with a near perfect score averages income of $200k later in life, while someone with a very low score averages $30k. Studies have also shown that people who score well on the SAT typically score very well on IQ tests as well. Is the SAT perfect? No, but it seems to be doing a pretty good job of figuring out who has the mental ability to be successful later in life, so I think tossing it out would be unwise.

Similarly, we have the safest aviation system in the world. While you may not be thrilled with how evaluation is done, you simply can't argue with the results. Planes are not falling out of the sky. And in parts of the world where testing is far more rigorous, safety records are not as strong. Clearly we're doing something (or many things) right.

Yes, but not in the airline pilot world. A high school graduate who made no effort in homework and no college (obviously) will earn the same as someone with a Bachelors and Masters in engineering on the same seniority list. IMO, pilots with a BS degree should earn more than those with just a HSD, and those with a Masters should earn more than those with a Bachelors, just like the rest of America. But the seniority system ensures that will never happen. Everyone is 'equal' with a number that says longevity is worth money.
 
You missed my point completely. As I said, you were saying some good things, but you missed the point that in a 121 training cycle it is studying smarter, not harder. You are given a lot of information that is only semi important but someone in the FAA wants it covered, so you cover it.

Also, the last two 121 training cycles I went through, CRM was graded heavier than the book knowledge you've been harping on.

It's not that only in 121, it's that nearly everywhere that is training-progressive. Part of studying smarter IS studying what you need to know to contribute to the greater mission.

Oh, this is an interesting statement. Remember a good CRM practice isn't to discount others just because you may have been doing something longer than the other person. So do you want to rethink that?

Want to knock the arrogance down a few notches Mark? Example: you want to preach to me about military flying and what we do and don't know, yet you don't come from that. We actually do CRM in the military Mark, because we actually do fly crew aircraft. I have been and am still on the civilian side, so yes, I am aware of both cockpit as well as crew resource management, and use both in single as well as crew aircraft that I'm assigned to. It's not some rocket science concept that's only on the 121 side of aviation.

So for the record, while what you were saying about CRM is indeed correct, your implying that someone doesn't know something due to their background, when you don't know anything about how said background works, is something you better rethink.

Do most failures in a 121 training environment occur in the oral/written test or in the sim environment?

Going it over with the crew is a HUGE part of it. MUCH more important than "hitting the books hard". I just wanted to make that crystal clear.

Failures can occur in both. My point, be prepared for both. That doesn't need to be spelled out Mark. The candidate will be made aware of where he isn't progressing. Up to him to fix those areas. Be it individual or CRM. Work on both, focus on whats important. It's all part of the training process. And if this or things like this need to be specifically spelled out, then it's being done now.

It's not arrogance, it's the fact that in my opinion, you are leaving out some pretty important points.

If one goes into a 121 training cycle focused heavily on themselves you are going to struggle. Yes, you have to bring your A game, but the crew concept is as, if not more fundamental to successful completion than you are making it out to be. If you have a good sim partner they can carry a lot of the weight where you are weak and vice versa. That NEEDS to be talked about and it wasn't happening.

It's all encompassing Mark. A guy coming into 121 generally isn't a guy who has zero idea what the job is about or what the basic concept of CRM is about. It's what the training is all about: making all the important points happen, and focusing on areas where people are weak. I highly doubt that the candidate has zero idea where they are weak in the program, and training IPs just keep them in the dark and all of a sudden one day, wash them out. They are made aware of their weak areas, and told where to focus. It could be individual, it could be CRM. And yes, of course CRM is part of it. But it sure would suck to not have the individual stuff down....the basics......such as knowledge, hands, SA, airmanship......and wash out on that baseline stuff.

You could be the best CRM person in the world, but your partner can only carry you so much (or you, carrying them so much). "Skating by" and depending on a CRM partner to keep you afloat, isn't the way you should be planning on going into it. That's a "nice to have", it shouldn't be a "need to have."
 
It's not that only in 121, it's that nearly everywhere that is training-progressive. Part of studying smarter IS studying what you need to know to contribute to the greater mission.

You were more focused in the individual "hitting the books". I am factually stating that while self study is important, in the 121 world today, at most places, you are graded more on your CRM skills. So study what you need for the oral/test, then focus on the big picture of what you will need to pass. You will need to have good CRM skills to pass.

You were missing that point and it was important to state.

Want to knock the arrogance down a few notches Mark?

I'm not being arrogant. I am trying to provide some corrections to what you are saying. For example, when you stated, "let your grade book do the talking", in the 121 environment it is usually pass/fail. You are trying to get through training as a group, not rank higher than your squadron mates to get the F-22 slot over the drone slot.

Example: you want to preach to me about military flying and what we do and don't know, yet you don't come from that.

I wasn't preaching to you about how it is done in the military. I was saying that on the civilian side we are graded differently than in the military and we have different focuses on the 121 side you may not be familiar (like I'm not familiar) with the emphasizes on the military side.

I feel you were downplaying greatly in your posts the emphasis on CRM. I wanted to bring another side to your conversation.

We actually do CRM in the military Mark, because we actually do fly crew aircraft.

I know that.

I have been and am still on the civilian side, so yes, I am aware of both cockpit as well as crew resource management, and use both in single as well as crew aircraft that I'm assigned to. It's not some rocket science concept that's only on the 121 side of aviation.

No it isn't rocket science. But it is important the right things are focused on.

So for the record, while what you were saying about CRM is indeed correct, your implying that someone doesn't know something due to their background, when you don't know anything about how said background works, is something you better rethink.

Then why weren't you talking about the crew concept in any of your posts until I brought it up? Once again there is a huge emphasis on CRM during 121 training, yet it wasn't brought up? Why?



Failures can occur in both.

I know that. But where do people have more issues? During the oral/test or sim?

My point, be prepared for both. That doesn't need to be spelled out Mark. The candidate will be made aware of where he isn't progressing. Up to him to fix those areas. Be it individual or CRM. Work on both, focus on whats important. It's all part of the training process. And if this or things like this need to be specifically spelled out, then it's being done now.

Of course one needs to be prepared for both. I never said one doesn't need to be focus in a particular area. I'm just pointing it out as a higher place of emphasis than you were.


It's all encompassing Mark. A guy coming into 121 generally isn't a guy who has zero idea what the job is about or what the basic concept of CRM is about. It's what the training is all about: making all the important points happen, and focusing on areas where people are weak. I highly doubt that the candidate has zero idea where they are weak in the program, and training IPs just keep them in the dark and all of a sudden one day, wash them out. They are made aware of their weak areas, and told where to focus. It could be individual, it could be CRM. And yes, of course CRM is part of it. But it sure would suck to not have the individual stuff down....the basics......such as knowledge, hands, SA, airmanship......and wash out on that baseline stuff.

You could be the best CRM person in the world, but your partner can only carry you so much (or you, carrying them so much). "Skating by" and depending on a CRM partner to keep you afloat, isn't the way you should be planning on going into it. That's a "nice to have", it shouldn't be a "need to have."

It is all encompassing to be able to manage the flight, which is 99.99999% good CRM skills.

Which brings me to this point....

In the training environment (I was a Check Airman at Colgan) those with good CRM usually have no problem on individual skills. While those that have trouble with CRM have individual skill issues as well. I think that goes to a lack of an ability to manage the flight and task manage.
 
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You were more focused in the individual "hitting the books". I am factually stating that while self study is important, in the 121 world today, at most places, you are graded more on your CRM skills. So study what you need for the oral/test, then focus on the big picture of what you will need to pass. You will need to have good CRM skills to pass.

You were missing that point and it was important to state.

Of course it's important to state. But it's also an assumed too. Gonna fly a crew aircraft, it certainly isn't done single pilot. However, what each pilot brings to the concept of CRM, will determine the effectiveness of that CRM. One guy cannot be carrying the other. And without a baseline of knowledge, ability, SA, hands, and a host of other prerequisites to good CRM, then it's one guy carrying the other in a too-unbalanced way. Sure, crews rely on one another here and there for things, lean on one other's strengths; but the difference between the two persons in terms of their standardization, shouldn't be that different at all. And each brings their own minimal baseline of ability to the game, or at least they should. Training should build on those abilities, while teaching new ones. And by and large, training departments seem to do that well. But the training department can only lift a guy up so much, and keep extra-training a guy who isn't, for whatever reason, progressing at a rate they need him to.

I'm not being arrogant. I am trying to provide some corrections to what you are saying. For example, when you stated, "let your grade book do the talking", in the 121 environment it is usually pass/fail. You are trying to get through training as a group, not rank higher than your squadron mates to get the F-22 slot over the drone slot.

I'm using a figure of speech. Let me explain (all you had to do was ask):

"Your gradebook graduates" has nothing to do with individual class ranking, that's a separate entity. That phrase refers to "....it doesn't matter how well you personally thought you have done in training, or what anyone thinks of you as a person. ALL that matters when it comes to pass/fail, is what your gradebook and gradesheets say." IE- your records are what passes or fails, not necessarily you as a person. The gradebook, gradesheets, records, whatever you want to call it......is what stays with you and all anyone cares about when making a determination of whether you stay or go. That's the context Im referring to.

In the military, you have to pass flight training first and foremost; then from that, rankings come for assignments. I was referring to the former, not the latter, using that phrase.

I wasn't preaching to you about how it is done in the military. I was saying that on the civilian side we are graded differently than in the military and we have different focuses on the 121 side you may not be familiar (like I'm not familiar) with the emphasizes on the military side.

I feel you were downplaying greatly in your posts the emphasis on CRM. I wanted to bring another side to your conversation.

CRM is hugely important, I fully agree. I basically hadn't gotten to that point yet, and of course it's just as important as the basics, and even moreso following the basics because without the basics, there's no CRM; and without CRM, there's no flight. It just won't happen these days......the days of dictator Capt long gone, at least in western countries.

But it is important the right things are focused on.

Then why weren't you talking about the crew concept in any of your posts until I brought it up? Once again there is a huge emphasis on CRM during 121 training, yet it wasn't brought up? Why?

As I said, without the basics down pat and understood, you'll only be a detriment to any follow-on phases, CRM included. That doesn't lessen the importance of CRM, but you have to crawl before you walk. To a student who hasn't even gotten past the crawl stage with his career desires, I wasn't going to start getting into techniques on running. That comes in short order.

Of course one needs to be prepared for both. I never said one doesn't need to be focus in a particular area. I'm just pointing it out as a higher place of emphasis than you were.

It is all encompassing to be able to manage the flight, which is 99.99999% good CRM skills.

Which brings me to this point....

In the training environment (I was a Check Airman at Colgan) those with good CRM usually have no problem on individual skills. While those that have trouble with CRM have individual skill issues as well. I think that goes to a lack of an ability to manage the flight and task manage.

They're both necessary. And both affect CRM, I fully agree.

As I said, you don't want the weak knowledge/ability person in the cockpit to where one pilot or another is carrying the weight of general knowledge for the other person (especially in an emergency). CRM is then adversely affected.

At the same time, you don't want someone who is lousy at CRM for whatever reason......doesn't click, doesn't care, doesn't listen, isn't paying attention, or a host of other issues.......because CRM is again adversely affected.

So yes, CRM was never downplayed as unimportant in any way. I was speaking to a primary audience however. So CRM is indeed noted as well.
 
I dont even remember what my SATs were. All I know is that they were good enough to get into college where I became an idiot the first 2 years.
 
I dont even remember what my SATs were. All I know is that they were good enough to get into college where I became an idiot the first 2 years.

I used to be pretty smart. AP Physics, English and Calculus. Accepted into a couple UC campuses and had the application for Stanford in the final stages and then…

"Ooh… Airplanes"

Went to Riddle and four years of "Maff fer pilolets" and "English for people that would rather be boning up on FA105" just rotted my brain.

And beer.
 
Actually those with high IQ's if not challenged properly can in fact end up getting average grades, or even failing grades due to academic boredom.
I didn't find anything fun about high school except for chemistry, physics, and calculus. I happened to kick ass at U.S. History too. But nothing else really pushed my buttons. I'm not going to completely throw the public schooling system under the bus, but I certainly agree with this sentiment. The local term is "GATE" - Gifted And Talented Education. Turns out that it's just as hard to (effectively) teach a GATE kid as the opposite end of the spectrum. Computers have always, always captured my attention. We had a PS/2 and a few homebuilts when I was a wee kid and I was hooked.

Grades 1-3 were spent at a (now closed) school in Burien, Washington, in a class of 18 kids. And 2 of the 3 years there was a student teacher in the room most of the time too. Pretty awesome. Second grade, Boeing dumped a bunch of surplus 486s on us and then in third grade a bunch of surplus Macintoshes. School was fun. They did this nifty thing where they actually tried to keep your attention.

Grades 4-5 were in the best that the Pleasant Valley School District could offer for alternative schools, with 27 in the room, far inferior by every dimension to what I had up at Highline. "Computers? What are those?" I think we might have had one, somewhere.

Fun story. My math scores cratered and in fifth grade mom took me to the Kumon math centers. The stern Asian lady asked after running her battery of tests, "Is your son ADHD?" My mom, never one to pull a punch: "No, he's just uninterested in what you are selling." I flat out told my fifth grade teacher that I thought her teaching was dull; she sent me outside to think it over after telling me that school is not dull. (I spent a LOT of time outside that year "thinking over" various transgressions. Good going, Mrs. B.)

6-7-8 I got to work in the computer lab one to two periods a day. That was cool.

9-10 are a blur. Junior year, chemistry class, and suddenly I gave a damn. Too late. Skated out of HS with "only" a 3.4.

Attend local CSU. Obtain two concurrent bachelor's degrees in unrelated fields.

Suck it, California primary and secondary. You are terrible.

So yeah, I have a beef.
 
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