Challenger 604 copilot wanted, Luton based.

Jetsteff Aviation said:
Back when I was a 1500 hour pilot, the best job you could get was flying a Cessna 402 to the Grand Canyon doing air tours. With an ATP, 2500 hours (of which 1000 hours were as ME PIC), I was lucky if I could get a small commuter to even look at me, and I would have been deliriously happy if I could have nailed down a job flying as copilot on a Beech 99 or a Bandit (EMB-110). I didn't manage to land a commuter job until I had over 3500 hours with lots of instrument and multi-engine PIC time (that was in 1986). I got paid the enormous sum of $900/month for the first year I flew for that major Delta regional. 2nd year pay was $1200/month, and by that time I was flying a 35 passenger turboprop operated under Part 121, and I still qualified for food stamps. Going into my third year, ALPA decided the pilots should go on strike. The only problem was that while you're on strike, you aren't working. I couldn't afford it so I started looking for a job right away. I eventually got lucky and managed to land a job flying right seat in a Lear 35 at the end of 1988. I've been a Corporate Pilot ever since.
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Your path in aviation seems like you've had a lot of good experiences and variety, but in the spirit of transparency in today's dollars that's $23,000 a year first year and $29,700 second. Adjusted for inflation gasoline was $1.77/gal. Seems like you made out pretty good and higher than what guys today get compensated for a larger turbofan aircraft.

For those interested in this job here is some info worth considering: (I was curious and am stuck in an MSP hotel today)

According to the 2012 ProPilot Survey:
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This job is offered at $60,000 with no benefits AND in the UK.

Here's some info on cost of living in Luton:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...United+Kingdom&city=Luton&displayCurrency=USD
Average rent is $900 a month + basic utilities $166

Tax in the UK using this calculator with no big deductions gets you $45,650 net. That's a 24% tax rate and I think it'd be similar in the US.

Just some food for thought...
 
Thanks for the positive comments, guys. I have to work with what the owner is willing to pay, but if I can get a bit more for the lucky candidate, I certainly will.

Inverted - I came off a bit strong on my response to you - sorry about that. All of us have our own ideas of what's appropriate and what isn't - we're all different and that's part of what being human is all about.

Stone Cold - thanks for the comment. I was temporarily based in Odessa and Kiev about 8 years ago and used to do the Moscow shuffle from those two places, including a lot of back and forth to Nice. Did you use Airlink International for handling in the Ukraine? It's owned by a very good friend of mine.

KLB - You're absolutely spot on. Many guys in Europe do exactly that. The average flight time for a European bizjet Captain is considerably lower than what I'm used to seeing back home in the states. Lot's of 3,000 hour Captains running around over here who have never seen clouds above 25,000 feet and get scared of low level rain showers that a Texas or Florida based pilot wouldn't even consider to be "weather". That's why I hope I can find someone stateside that will take this. I get a more experienced pilot than I might otherwise find, and they in turn get some great international and overwater time on a large-cabin bizjet.

Best of luck to all of us. As they say over here: Cheers!
 
Skåning said:
Your path in aviation seems like you've had a lot of good experiences and variety, but in the spirit of transparency in today's dollars that's $23,000 a year first year and $29,700 second. Adjusted for inflation gasoline was $1.77/gal. Seems like you made out pretty good and higher than what guys today get compensated for a larger turbofan aircraft.
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$23,000 a year is about the average starting pay for regionals in America if I remember the reports I read last year, so how did I make out so good? It just goes to show that regionals still pay crap. The aircraft type is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, as the airplanes I was flying back then were the standard for that time. I understand if you are basing your comment on the higher pax loads of the current crop of regional airliners, though.

As for the pay relative to the ProPilot survey, it's why I have said from the beginning that the pay is low. What isn't being factored into your numbers, though is the time off factor via the scheduled rotation. For a local guy already in Europe, that's a big deal, as it opens up a lot of possibilities for daily-rate contract flying. Also, many local European companies have strange per diem structures that prevent the pilot from saving any of that money for themselves, whereas we pay you $120/day for every day you are on duty away from base, whether you use it or not, and at a monthly average of 15 to 20 days a month, it adds up to a lot more than you will spend on food if you're careful and not too lazy about eating somewhere other than the hotel restaurants. There are other small perks that add up as well (you can expect a Christmas bonus of about a month's salary, for instance). I could go on, but I'm too tired to keep my eyes open any longer!
 
Jetsteff Aviation said:
$23,000 a year is about the average starting pay for regionals in America if I remember the reports I read last year, so how did I make out so good? It just goes to show that regionals still pay crap. The aircraft type is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, as the airplanes I was flying back then were the standard for that time. I understand if you are basing your comment on the higher pax loads of the current crop of regional airliners, though.

I could go on, but I'm too tired to keep my eyes open any longer!
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I think that money took you further back then because education, rent, gas, etc was cheaper. Don't get me wrong, the regional pay now is utter crap and I hope everyone holds the line and votes against garbage contracts.

You're a stand up guy for posting the job here and going into the detail about the job. Corporate flying is a whole other world for airline guys like myself and I do appreciate the insight you've given.
 
Update 1: our 604 was going to go down at the end of summer for its 96 month inspection and new paint (a 2&1/2 month event), but now that is being moved forward to the beginning of summer (mid-June). What that means is that anyone who does not have the type rating already and is considering this job should plan it so that they go to 604 initial at FSI starting around early August and be ready to fly by mid September at the latest. That gives whomever is selected plenty of time to give notice and plan ahead. For time consideration, plan 3 weeks for 604 school, 2 days for International Ops (MNPS, RVSM, RNP, etc.) and a week at home to get organized before reporting for your first 6-week duty period. You do not go on payroll until the day you first travel to go on duty.

Update 2: The boss has agreed (tentatively) to several items that I have pushed for:
1. If the person we want needs to get the type rating, we will provide an interest-free loan to cover the cost, paid back via direct payroll deduction over a two-year period (contract and promissory note required). Our rate with FSI is $28,600, but I am hoping to get that down just a bit. CAE wants a lot more. If you need the type, and can get it done cheaper (at FSI or CAE) under someone else's contract, feel free to do so. We would wire payment directly to FSI in the name of whatever account gives you the best rate.
2. Reference #1 above - we will pay for hotel, rental car and $60/day per diem while you are in 604 school.
3. We will pay for the round trip ticket to and from FSI (Wilmington, Delaware or Tucson, Arizona).
4. If you are not already living in the UK, we will pay for your first airline ticket to the UK to report for your first duty period. After that, if you choose to live somewhere other than near the aircraft base, you are responsible for your own commuting expenses.

From this site alone, in 4 days I have received 9 resumes/CVs so far, from which I have narrowed down my interest to 4. Of those 4, the lowest time guy has a little over 2400 hours and is flying a turboprop, and the highest time guy has just shy of 5000 hours and 2 jet type ratings. All 4 are currently employed as Captains and have good experience across several aircraft types in all kinds of environments. I am very happy with the quality results of my short search so far, and happy that everyone who has responded see this as an opportunity to open the door for them into the heavy corporate iron. I'll keep accepting resumes/CVs for now, since we are not pressed for time.
 
Skåning said:
Your path in aviation seems like you've had a lot of good experiences and variety, but in the spirit of transparency in today's dollars that's $23,000 a year first year and $29,700 second. Adjusted for inflation gasoline was $1.77/gal. Seems like you made out pretty good and higher than what guys today get compensated for a larger turbofan aircraft.

For those interested in this job here is some info worth considering: (I was curious and am stuck in an MSP hotel today)

According to the 2012 ProPilot Survey:
13132851953_26fd08d124.jpg


This job is offered at $60,000 with no benefits AND in the UK.

Here's some info on cost of living in Luton:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...United+Kingdom&city=Luton&displayCurrency=USD
Average rent is $900 a month + basic utilities $166

Tax in the UK using this calculator with no big deductions gets you $45,650 net. That's a 24% tax rate and I think it'd be similar in the US.

Just some food for thought...
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You weren't stuck in the hotel all day. I do believe you went out with me and are some balls. Swedish ones that is.
 
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