Comair 5191/Eyewitness Animations

GypsyPilot said:
That's right. I remember carrying a ton of ice into ACV one night. It did well (as usual), but we were glad to be on the ground. This was after going missed once, on our way in from CEC. ACV was supposed to be VFR! Man was that a weird airport that would screw you in a second.
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Fun fact, I've read ACV was built because the land was selected as a location for a USAAF training airport due it it fogging in more often than any other part of the coast they could build on. I think they tested a decent amount of instrument approaches in there back in the day. Didn't translate very well for commercial service.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Fun fact, I've read ACV was built because the land was selected as a location for a USAAF training airport due it it fogging in more often than any other part of the coast they could build on. I think they tested a decent amount of instrument approaches in there back in the day. Didn't translate very well for commercial service.
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True. If I remember correctly, Arcata had the first ILS.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Wings level, under control (well...reasonably...), tail low, and as straight as you can manage it, if you can manage it, is what I've been told.
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Not sure If I agree with keeping the tail low in an accident. Impacting with a nose up attitude introduces a lot of compression forces through the body, which humans have a low tolerance for. I would shoot for a level attitude.
 
I was in my second week of ground school at Comair when this happened. One of my classmates called me at whatever AM time to tell me turn on the news(We went out the night before because we had the next day off so my mind was a little blurred). Turn it on and shock/awe/whatever astounding moment went through me. My mom who was so proud of her son making it to a regional at the time was fielding numerous calls from family and friends asking if it was me. Funny part about that was on 9/11 same group of people were asking me if she made it out(great story if I ever encounter any of you guys on the road or hopefully NJC). The following ground school day was numb to say the least. Every management person came in to talk to us and asked us how we were doing. Comair at the time was declining but I tolerated working there, when the doors closed and certain overnights. I flew with many pilots and FAs who said those guys were good crew. They just happened to get caught up in something that could happen to anyone of us. God rest their souls and fly safe lady/gents.
 
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BobDDuck said:
I never knew it was pneumatic on the Dash. The CRJ has an electric motor mounted on the FO's yoke that pushes. Since the yokes are linked (normally) it pushes both forward.
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Only on the 300 & 400. The 100 and 200 only have shakers.
GypsyPilot said:
Uh, no they don't. Not at all. Those are real brother.
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I thought for sure they were fakes taken from the audio tracks of air disasters or whatever, before I listened to them, mainly because I knew that the NTSB isn't supposed to release the actual CVR audio.

Once I listened to them, I flip flopped. They are real. They are legit. There is no way to fake that kind of audio.
 
ChasenSFO said:
On the topic of these videos, I found this one. No matter how many times I watch it...I can't imagine why the PIC would attempt to keep flying instead of just stopping on the remaining runway...


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My human factors professor called it "going animal". Unless you have specific training for an event to fall back on, your cognitive functions shut down and your primal instincts kick in. Imagine a caveman trying to fly an airplane.
 
mojo6911 said:
My human factors professor called it "going animal". Unless you have specific training for an event to fall back on, your cognitive functions shut down and your primal instincts kick in. Imagine a caveman trying to fly an airplane.
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Ah, interesting. Hadn't heard of that before. Still...not being trained for an engine failure?
 
ChasenSFO said:
Ah, interesting. Hadn't heard of that before. Still...not being trained for an engine failure?
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The top video wasn't an engine failure. He likely stalled it twice. Not sure why he would attempt the second takeoff, but I have seen some people do some pretty stupid things when they're stressed out in the airplane. Often times, they couldn't tell me why they did it.

The pilot had received his private pilot certificate one and a half months prior to the accident. The pilot's logbook indicated he had a total flight time of 73.3 hours of which 49.5 hours in the accident airplane.
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My best guess is that he saw the fence coming at him fast and couldn't think about it logically and decided to try to take off again to get over the fence. You see similar things with guys doing stalls. They know the correct recovery procedure is to lower the angle of attack, but they see the ground and pull back on the yoke. Caveman see ground, caveman go up.
 
It really puts a clearer perspective on the pace of the CVR vice what you read it at.

So many prior practices reinforced and other cleanups instituted as a result of 5191.

BTW- I read that the FO lost his leg because he didn't have the lower part of the 5-point harness on. It turns out that some think it's cool to not have that fastened. Are you freaking kidding me? Is this middle school!? I know he was a Gulfstreamer and part of the culture I probably have the most distaste for other than scabs (known for its immaturity, and its "graduates" were involved in all the regional accidents the last 10 years), but my goodness... that's just pure immaturity.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
It really puts a clearer perspective on the pace of the CVR vice what you read it at.

So many prior practices reinforced and other cleanups instituted as a result of 5191.

BTW- I read that the FO lost his leg because he didn't have the lower part of the 5-point harness on. It turns out that some think it's cool to not have that fastened. Are you freaking kidding me? Is this middle school!? I know he was a Gulfstreamer and part of the culture I probably have the most distaste for other than scabs (known for its immaturity, and its "graduates" were involved in all the regional accidents the last 10 years), but my goodness... that's just pure immaturity.
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You're right. It doesn't take as much force as people think to send you either flying forwards or even sliding underneath the side straps. There have been pilots found after a crash under the rudder pedals. No bueno.
 
A Life Aloft said:
You're right. It doesn't take as much force as people think to send you either flying forwards or even sliding underneath the side straps. There have been pilots found after a crash under the rudder pedals. No bueno.
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A friend who is a firefighter told me you can usually tell when someone had their seat belt off in a bad car accident because they'll be curled up under the pedals. How hard is it to buckle in?
 
I probably think a lot more about tailplane stalls than is rational. #3, just behind in-flight fire and airframe/flight control failure on my list of things to wake up in a cold sweat in a Hilton Garden Inn in, you know, wherever, over. Possibly because I got a wakeup call in a bitchjet a few years ago. If we'd had a CVR and we'd actually biffed it, it would have recorded my noble last words for posterity: "Oh (poop), we're gonna die, dude". I really did say "dude". Shameful. But I'll never again look at the wing and figure the tail looks the same. So there's that!
 
mojo6911 said:
My human factors professor called it "going animal".
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That sounds about right. If you find yourself driving through the grass at full throttle instead of flying as intended like the guy in the PA28, it's definitely time to call it a day and probably buy some Steel Reserve on the way home.

It's amazing the nose gear lasted through all of that.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Fun fact, I've read ACV was built because the land was selected as a location for a USAAF training airport due it it fogging in more often than any other part of the coast they could build on. I think they tested a decent amount of instrument approaches in there back in the day. Didn't translate very well for commercial service.
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It's true. Bring extra gas, because sometimes, you've got to go as far as Redding to find an acceptable place to put the airplane.

Their glideslope was/is broken there about a week ago too.
 
DPApilot said:
The hawker has something called 'Lift Dump' associated with the air brakes. It lands with flaps 45 and when brought to lift dump, the flaps continue to 75 degrees while the airbrakes increase from I believe 59 degrees to 74 on the bottom, and somewhere like 30 to 59 on the top. I'd have to look into the book for the airbrake increase though. All in all, when you use lift dump, it slows the thing down. I fly both the A with and without TRs, and the XP with TRs and I'll tell ya, lift dump really slows you down!
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What is the configuration(functionality of the lift dump, thrust reverse, ect...) of that airplane for landing distance?
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It's true. Bring extra gas, because sometimes, you've got to go as far as Redding to find an acceptable place to put the airplane.

Their glideslope was/is broken there about a week ago too.
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Which is why I have so many fond memories as a customer service agent working those ACV flights. "I'm oversold, I need a full boat, 4 kids". "Hold it to 25". "I said 4 kids". "Hold it to 21 and 4".
 
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