We better all slim down

gotWXdagain said:
OK, seriously stupid question though: Why is sleep apnea disqualifying? I mean I get the whole stoppage of breathing while sleeping is bad, and the resulting fatigue isn't good either, but unless you're napping in the cockpit why is it a problem? Surely it can't be any more fatigue-inducing than, say, a 121 schedule on its own?

Which then brings up a chicken vs. egg argument: Is the fatigue resulting from sleep apnea degrading one's QOL to the point they feel physically unable to exercise, and as such live more sedentary and gain weight, or is sleep apnea a symptom of obesity?
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We had a crew at Mesa who both apparently had undiagnosed OSI fall asleep in the cockpit and overfly one of the islands of Hawaii and fly out into the ocean. Luckily they woke up before they ran out of fuel and managed to turn back around.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
We had a crew at Mesa who both apparently had undiagnosed OSI fall asleep in the cockpit and overfly one of the islands of Hawaii and fly out into the ocean. Luckily they woke up before they ran out of fuel and managed to turn back around.
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Has that incident been shown to be at least 50% caused by the OSA? I'm not sure how you would even quantify that.

If you get diagnosed with OSA and have to use a CPAP, what is that going to do to overnight flying? If you have to fly for 3 or 4 nights in a row, all through the night, you won't be able to use the CPAP to get at lease 6 hours of "use" a day. I say that because I doubt many people, myself included, sleep more than 3 or 4 hours at a time during the day after flying all night. I simply can't sleep any longer than that.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
We had a crew at Mesa who both apparently had undiagnosed OSI fall asleep in the cockpit and overfly one of the islands of Hawaii and fly out into the ocean. Luckily they woke up before they ran out of fuel and managed to turn back around.
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I feel like that's selling the issue short. Without my googling the incident—how much rest had those crewmembers received in the 24 hours prior to the incident flight?
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
We had a crew at Mesa who both apparently had undiagnosed OSI fall asleep in the cockpit and overfly one of the islands of Hawaii and fly out into the ocean. Luckily they woke up before they ran out of fuel and managed to turn back around.
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Good ol' go!. My first flight on them was probably the sketchiest 121 flight I've ever taken, that's a story over beers.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
IT WAS LEGAL YOU HAVE TO FLY IT IT'S SAFE YOU HAVE TO FLY IT.
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I've seen that from schedulers all too often.... "what's your issue, this pairing is legal!" That will be the biggest problem with this whole ordeal. The FAA is instating a requirement to sign that you're fit for duty on the release. But they didn't instate anything to say what happens if you're not. I'm sure most companies you'll lose pay or potentially even get in trouble long-term (some airlines use "occurrences"). What if I simply didn't sleep well on my 20 hour layover? Or at home?
 
Dan208B said:
That will be the biggest problem with this whole ordeal. The FAA is instating a requirement to sign that you're fit for duty on the release. But they didn't instate anything to say what happens if you're not. I'm sure most companies you'll lose pay or potentially even get in trouble long-term (some airlines use "occurrences"). What if I simply didn't sleep well on my 20 hour layover? Or at home?
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"Too bad" comes to mind. My airline does not discipline pilots for calling in fatigued. I'm pretty sure that the FAA would take a dim view of any air carrier that took disciplinary action against a pilot who did use a safety-related program to remove himself from duty. (This is a safety program, after all.)

Removing yourself from duty when fatigued or otherwise not fit to fly is an act of personal responsibility. I'd rather be alive and in hot water than dead and happily employed.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
"Too bad" comes to mind. My airline does not discipline pilots for calling in fatigued. I'm pretty sure that the FAA would take a dim view of any air carrier that took disciplinary action against a pilot who did use a safety-related program to remove himself from duty. (This is a safety program, after all.)

Removing yourself from duty when fatigued or otherwise not fit to fly is an act of personal responsibility. I'd rather be alive and in hot water than dead and happily employed.
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I agree with you 100%. I have worked for airlines where this is the case and I think it's great. However, my current employer would find a way to make it an issue in other ways later down the road if it happened more than once. I can say this to be true for another airline I've worked for as well. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
 
Dan208B said:
I agree with you 100%. I have worked for airlines where this is the case and I think it's great. However, my current employer would find a way to make it an issue in other ways later down the road if it happened more than once. I can say this to be true for another airline I've worked for as well. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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Fatigue calls are the flip side of aggressive scheduling. And irregular operations (sick, fatigue, systemwide disruptions, etc.) are why we have reserves. If you can't staff the operation with adequate reserves for when things go pear-shaped, then maybe don't schedule so aggressively.

Is the circle of life, Simba.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Fatigue calls are the flip side of aggressive scheduling. And irregular operations (sick, fatigue, systemwide disruptions, etc.) are why we have reserves. If you can't staff the operation with adequate reserves for when things go pear-shaped, then maybe don't schedule so aggressively.

Is the circle of life, Simba.
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Exactly. My company will make the case that they have multiple small bases and some irregular operations that they can't staff reserves for, but I've seen other airlines deal with it well. Oh well... still hoping for that phone call to go to greener pastures.
 
Dan208B said:
Exactly. My company will make the case that they have multiple small bases and some irregular operations that they can't staff reserves for, but I've seen other airlines deal with it well. Oh well... still hoping for that phone call to go to greener pastures.
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"That's great. I prefer to not crash."
 
This is the one area where I'll give SWA credit: you can call in fatigued and still get paid for it. Completely takes away the disincentive to call in fatigued when you actually are, and guys still don't abuse the system, despite what other managements claim pilots would do.
 
Dugie8 said:
Has that incident been shown to be at least 50% caused by the OSA? I'm not sure how you would even quantify that.

If you get diagnosed with OSA and have to use a CPAP, what is that going to do to overnight flying? If you have to fly for 3 or 4 nights in a row, all through the night, you won't be able to use the CPAP to get at lease 6 hours of "use" a day. I say that because I doubt many people, myself included, sleep more than 3 or 4 hours at a time during the day after flying all night. I simply can't sleep any longer than that.
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I work nights and have zero issues with using CPAP and getting over 6 hours sleep during the day. Of course I don't work pilot hours and have duty times, so it'll be interesting to see how that changes things.
 
H46Bubba said:
I work nights and have zero issues with using CPAP and getting over 6 hours sleep during the day. Of course I don't work pilot hours and have duty times, so it'll be interesting to see how that changes things.
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I work 3 days, 3 nights, 3 off. No way to flip your internal clock in 24 hours.
 
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