Do part 142 checkrides failures get reported to the FAA?

Autothrust Blue said:
I forget what the doctrine is in employment law (@jtrain609 , @HRDiva ) but I'm pretty sure that in not a few states it's an easy matter to simply can you, and in a hurry, if your application doesn't check out.

If anyone cares.
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I don't see how that answer, quoting my words, relates to what I wrote?
 
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ndakcfi said:
AFAIK, the only records the FAA has concerning 141 stage checks are for the ones that grant a certificate or rating, and if an employer wanted to find records about something like a pre-solo check, they'd either need to get a copy of the relevant TCO from the school and go through the logbook in detail, or get the training records from the flight school, which is very unlikely due to the liability it exposes the flight school to.
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I believe that is a correct statement.

The only wrinkle I'm not sure of is what records are transmitted when a school has self-examining authority. I have a feeling that much of the disconnected and divergent comments in this thread may be because some people are answering in terms of 141 schools that have self-examining authority and others are answering in terms of 141 schools that don't.

I do know that the only records that go into the FAA database for individual students in non self-examining authority 141 schools are the results of a practical test administered by a DPE or FAA inspector. I'm just not sure about the schools that have self-examining authority.
 
My understanding is that the FAA retains essentially the same information from both types of 141 schools (I may be wrong here, so someone correct me if I am), since keeping records of every single stage check would easily double or quadruple the amount of information they'd be storing about an individual, and most of it would be completely useless.
 
I was a check instructor at a 141 school: Failing a 141 stage check isn't reported to the FAA, even if the 141 school has self-examining authority and the stage check was your final check (which would result in the issuance of your pilot's certificate.) It is kept on file in your required 141 documents as a student for a certain period of time and could be audited by the FAA, but even if it is it isn't like the FAA will then add it to their database. I always thought that this was kind of a sucky double standard for part 91 and part 141.

But I would say that it wasn't uncommon to have a student not quite ready for a particular stage check -- should he indicate that he failed that "training event"? I wouldn't think so, we just trained some more. Even if you're part 91 you have personal, informal "stage checks" that you do as an instructor -- or at least I did when I thought the student was ready for solo, getting close to checkride, etc. The only stage check I would consider a failure is the last one at a school with self-examining authority.
 
I work do EOC stage checks in the courses in which my school has examining authority. If a student fails then it simply is logged like any other unsatisfactory training event.

Retrain and resubmit. No need for another IACRA or 8710. Once the EOC ride is satisfactory then the IACRA is processed and that is the official FAA record.

Also don't forget that training records are only required to be kept on record for one year for both 141 and 142.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
I was a check instructor at a 141 school: Failing a 141 stage check isn't reported to the FAA, even if the 141 school has self-examining authority and the stage check was your final check (which would result in the issuance of your pilot's certificate.) It is kept on file in your required 141 documents as a student for a certain period of time and could be audited by the FAA, but even if it is it isn't like the FAA will then add it to their database. I always thought that this was kind of a sucky double standard for part 91 and part 141.

But I would say that it wasn't uncommon to have a student not quite ready for a particular stage check -- should he indicate that he failed that "training event"? I wouldn't think so, we just trained some more. Even if you're part 91 you have personal, informal "stage checks" that you do as an instructor -- or at least I did when I thought the student was ready for solo, getting close to checkride, etc. The only stage check I would consider a failure is the last one at a school with self-examining authority.
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This is exactly correct. Nothing from part 141/142 winds up on your actual FAA record.
 
Houston said:
I'm sorry, but I'm getting lost in your wording. I think what you're trying to say is that the FAA provides everything it has in the report, but that not everything that is done in training / testing / checking is reported by the carrier to the FAA. Is that a correct interpretation of your statement?

Here is what AC 120-68F Paragraph 1-7a says in regards to what the FAA expects the operator to request and what the FAA provides:
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No, that is not what I'm trying to say at all. The FAA's letter, which is provided to an air carrier during a PRIA records request, is simply a one page letter which lists what ratings you have, any violations, and whether or not you're under investigation.

You could have failed every single checkride you've taken 13 times each and none of this is disclosed.
 
HRDiva said:
I haven't read the thread, but if you sign a statement on your app certifying it as true and it's not, it is grounds for termination.
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I have never suggested that anyone lie or say anything untrue or falsify anything- I am merely explaining to those that don't know what it is that the FAA and previous air carrier's will say about them.
 
Houston said:
I don't see how that answer, quoting my words, relates to what I wrote?
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Upon reviewing the play, I probably shouldn't have quoted you directly with that answer.

I'm merely urging caution (and urging that one err on the side of disclosure, because there's nothing more awkward than "grab your stuff and follow me") in what you choose not to disclose to a prospective employer, is all.

"It's not a failure if nobody finds out about it" is, to me, a bit of a slippery slope.

SpiraMirabilis said:
I was a check instructor at a 141 school: Failing a 141 stage check isn't reported to the FAA, even if the 141 school has self-examining authority and the stage check was your final check (which would result in the issuance of your pilot's certificate.) It is kept on file in your required 141 documents as a student for a certain period of time and could be audited by the FAA, but even if it is it isn't like the FAA will then add it to their database. I always thought that this was kind of a sucky double standard for part 91 and part 141.
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Amazing, and other expressions of disbelief.
 
It's important to note that some airlines (if not all) will check your logbook for verification of the dates of your previous stage checks. If they catch on through your logbook that you have lied on your application, you will be shown swiftly the path to the nearest exist. I suppose that one could forge his/her logbook in order to get around that procedure, but in that case you would have to live with the fear that one day you may be caught, and the results will not be pretty if that should happen.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I'm merely urging caution (and urging that one err on the side of disclosure, because there's nothing more awkward than "grab your stuff and follow me") in what you choose not to disclose to a prospective employer, is all.

"It's not a failure if nobody finds out about it" is, to me, a bit of a slippery slope.
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I couldn't agree more. Mark Twain said it well:

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
 
FoodStampsPilot said:
It's important to note that some airlines (if not all) will check your logbook for verification of the dates of your previous stage checks. If they catch on through your logbook that you have lied on your application, you will be shown swiftly the path to the nearest exist. I suppose that one could forge his/her logbook in order to get around that procedure, but in that case you would have to live with the fear that one day you may be caught, and the results will not be pretty if that should happen.
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Not that I think any of this has anything to do with the employability of an applicant (when hiring a pilot, I see absolutely zero correlation with whether you failed your Instrument rating stage check 3000 hours ago and whether you can successfully get through a LR60 type course without issue or not), but in this day and age of electronic logbooks, if someone wanted to conveniently "mistype" a few words here and there, it's not like anyone would be able to go back and find this stuff if you didn't disclose it.
 
cencal83406 said:
Terrible advice!

First of all, disclose everything you can, be honest, up front, and own mistakes.

Multiple failures in 141 or 142 mean we have bigger problems than just worrying about disclosing a failed checkride.

I hope none of your candidates have had to go home with their tails between their legs when they got pulled out of class because of something the airline found out.
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Perhaps you misunderstood my advice, I'd never recommend a pilot to hide or lie about anything. Honesty is always the best policy. I take a pilot's honesty as an assumption. This may lead to disqualification for one picky airline interview but that's nothing compared to the dire consequences pilots can find themselves in if accused of dishonesty.
 
USAviationRecruiter said:
Perhaps you misunderstood my advice, I'd never recommend a pilot to hide or lie about anything. Honesty is always the best policy. I take a pilot's honesty as an assumption. This may lead to disqualification for one picky airline interview but that's nothing compared to the dire consequences pilots can find themselves in if accused of dishonesty.
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I figured as much. No worries. As long as failures aren't a "pattern", they can be good TMAAT subjects showcasing growth of the applicant. This also assumes a not-so-recent failure history.
 
Report that stuff I say! I don't know a single "bad pilot" from UND that wasn't able to get a job, even the ones with bad attitudes about it.

I'd rather be written off for anything under the sun over being a liar. Liars are scum. You'll get caught someday anyways.
 
UAL747400 said:
Report that stuff I say! I don't know a single "bad pilot" from UND that wasn't able to get a job, even the ones with bad attitudes about it.

I'd rather be written off for anything under the sun over being a liar. Liars are scum. You'll get caught someday anyways.
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Just to add to UAL747400, I'm in training right now and had a guy from class just get yanked from class for not fully disclosing something (most likely something on his FBI background, but, can't say for sure), as well as a guy from the class which is about 4 weeks ahead of me who was yanked from his class for not disclosing a failed checkride from 28 YEARS ago!!! Point is, like UAL747400 said, disclose everything!!! It will catch up to you!
 
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