Must read for those thinking of doing the CFII as the initial

This was changed within the past few years. We have a guy at our school strictly instructing instrument students in the simulator until he gets his CFI-A. I have a feeling he will be our school's first and last instructor to do the CFII initial.

Now my question is... Why does the FAA bother doing the check ride in the airplane if the CFII alone is worthless for FLIGHT instruction?

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I don't get it. Looks like a loophole is being closed that has in the past allowed cookie cutters to bypass the feared and dreaded FAA checkride. Whats wrong with that?
 
Inverted said:
That must have changed within the last 4 years or so huh?
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It is one of the more interesting political skirmishes within the FAA. Arguably, the regs always said this but FAA written policy allowed a CFII to teach instrument procedures in an airplane. At the same time the Counsel's office said no and even started a certificate action against an instructor. That was ultimately dropped.

Finally, a few years ago, the FAA did whatever it does to resolve internal discrepancies, did a very minor amendment 61.195, called it a change and formally prohibited the practice, although the last time I checked FSIMS still had the old rule.
 
I sent a student on the CFI initial ride once and and he said he did not even have the time requirements for a FAA Commercial because he did the bulk of his training in Europe. He said European hours don't count toward FAA certificates. True story.

Once I sent a CFI initial and he busted because he was "too fast" on his power off 180. Even though he nailed the numbers. And too fast to him was 90 mph, which in a short wing arrow, is best glide.

I also sent a 50 year old Chief JAA flight instructor who knew more than anyone on this website and most definitely anyone in the FSDO office and he failed. I think he failed in 10 minutes because he recited the triangle of needs BS backward or something. @mojo6911 was a witness to that one.

This is why I stopped sending them. They have zero standards to which they conduct a checkride.
 
IMO each FSDO seems to do what ever it wants and there is little oversight and standardization withing the ranks.. I took my CFI ride and was done and out the door in about 4-5 hours. It was the guys last day and I was his last check ride before retirement. It was thorough, I got read the riot act when I showed up on the ramp a few minutes early and was asked was asked if I knew what 8am meant. It doesn't mean 745. Also to end the check ride I had to shoot a partial panel NDB. But I passed.

My CFII with a DPE was short and sweet...Failed in 5 min flat in the oral. Examiner asked me to find a reg. Walked to the end of the hall got some coffee and came back. He said did you find it yet. I said know and he handed me the pick slip. Said I needed to be able to find regs faster and need to know the FARs forward and backwards.

One FSDO cost me a significant amount of $$$ because it wouldn't let another DPE or FSDO do my type ride. Only that FSDO would do my type ride and they weren't available. Therefore, no type = no upgrade = no flying = no upgraded pay and only FO guarantee pay until check ride is passed.

Another FSDO was adamant that we could not set DH on the RAD ALT unless the aircraft and crew were CAT II certified.

The best one I just heard the other day. A pilot was failed by because he went around. The examiner said he needed to be able to land out of the approach and going missed is a failure of the approach maneuver.
 
On the plus side they did finally throw us a bone by letting CFI rides count as a flight review.

That was long overdue,

Actually when I took my CFIA a couple years ago after I passed and he handed me my certificate, I asked the FSDO inspector if he would sign me off for a flight review and he said he would have failed me for asking that 10 minutes earlier.
 
DBrown said:
On the plus side they did finally throw us a bone by letting CFI rides count as a flight review.

That was long overdue,

Actually when I took my CFIA a couple years ago after I passed and he handed me my certificate, I asked the FSDO inspector if he would sign me off for a flight review and he said he would have failed me for asking that 10 minutes earlier.
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did he explain why?

anything other than "flight reviews are instruction, checkrides are not instruction" is a massive disappointmen
 
He
Ajax said:
did he explain why?

anything other than "flight reviews are instruction, checkrides are not instruction" is a massive disappointmen
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Nope that is exactly what he said, I knew the reg too! But I needed a review soon so I thought it was worth a shot, I have heard a lot of guys say they ask for it and got it with no issues.

I led the question with "I understand that I didn't receive any dual today but I did show proficiency so would you be mind signing a flight review for me?"

I thought it couldn't hurt to ask, it sucks because I left there with a CFIA, first time pass, then had to take a flight review a week later
 
ryanmickG said:
I sent a student on the CFI initial ride once and and he said he did not even have the time requirements for a FAA Commercial because he did the bulk of his training in Europe. He said European hours don't count toward FAA certificates. True story.

Once I sent a CFI initial and he busted because he was "too fast" on his power off 180. Even though he nailed the numbers. And too fast to him was 90 mph, which in a short wing arrow, is best glide.

I also sent a 50 year old Chief JAA flight instructor who knew more than anyone on this website and most definitely anyone in the FSDO office and he failed. I think he failed in 10 minutes because he recited the triangle of needs BS backward or something. @mojo6911 was a witness to that one.

This is why I stopped sending them. They have zero standards to which they conduct a checkride.
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You would have had to restrain me if the power off 180 scenario was one of my applicants.
 
DBrown said:
He


Nope that is exactly what he said, I knew the reg too! But I needed a review soon so I thought it was worth a shot, I have heard a lot of guys say they ask for it and got it with no issues.

I led the question with "I understand that I didn't receive any dual today but I did show proficiency so would you be mind signing a flight review for me?"

I thought it couldn't hurt to ask, it sucks because I left there with a CFIA, first time pass, then had to take a flight review a week later
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I asked my DPE after my MEI. He said that the ride itself covers it. I told him it doesn't and explained. He smiled and said that it is obvious that I know my stuff and then signed me off.

In actuality, I should have just asked the instructor who signed me off for one.
 
Cessna414JJB said:
I don't get it. Looks like a loophole is being closed that has in the past allowed cookie cutters to bypass the feared and dreaded FAA checkride. Whats wrong with that?
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What is your definition of "loophole"? Something the FAA specifically says is authorized doesn't fit mine, whether I agree with it or not.

And the FAA at one time definitely said that a CFI-I with no CFI-A could teach instruments in an aircraft.
 
DBrown said:
the email came with 2 attachments full of legal opinions from Washington and Oklahoma so I think it's legit.

I agree it's total BS

I know plenty of people that have done the CFII as the initial

Flyers CFI academy is set up to do the CFII first
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But this isn't referring to 141, which is what you did when you were there. Didn't I sign you off for your CFII 141? lol. Anyways, they'll just have to flip-flop it around... I kinda' saw this coming, and do agree with the "category/class" debate.
 
Lets throw this into the mix as well. Technically, I don't think you need even a medical do give instruction for the instrument rating if you aren't acting as PIC for the flight, just as long as you have the II certificate. Also, why can't a CFII without a MEI give instruction in a twin for instrument work as long as it is isn't single engine work, especially if he/she isn't acting as PIC and the pilot receiving instruction is AMEL VFR rated and current?
 
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