Must read for those thinking of doing the CFII as the initial

I'd like to have a Letter on the FAA definition of easy!
The PTS is what it is regardless.
Not sure what the stink is about.

I know a private pilot with IFR that can't fly a SEL airplane per the regs "did all his training in dads Seneca"

He is an unsafe danger to us all if he climbs into a 172 without that SEL add on ;):sarcasm:
 
ryanmickG said:
I stopped signing initials off a while ago. Got tired of the BS with them not having any standards whatsoever. They don't even use their own PTS. Juice ain't worth the squeeze.
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I did my initial with the FSDO (CFI-A) and while we were working through the oral one of the other inspectors came to the conference room, pounded on the door, and taped a piece of printer paper on the window that said "FOLLOW THE PTS!!!".

In the moment, it was hilarious.

However, I was also fortunate to have a reasonable and helpful inspector on my checkride, which I know isn't always the case.
 
mshunter said:
What's the rub with having to get your CFI before your CFII? Lot's of guys have done it. I got my MEI before I got the rest of them.

Regardless, I see now where in the regs that it states you can't get the II first. I guess I just answered my own question.

Edit to add: Can you post up the two attachments? And what about getting an LOI from a real fed?
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The regs say you can't act as a flight instructor without holding the correct certificates. They don't say anything about the order in which you have to hold the certificates.

Personally, I did the CFII as the initial because I was significantly more comfortable with instrument flying and instrument regulations than I was with private and commercial stuff.
 
mojo6911 said:
The LOI have nothing to do with the conclusion they have made.
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Then they have no basis for their claim, which nullifies it.

In reality, this is no ones fault but the guys who always scream about "do your II first, it's easier!" Whether or not that's the case, that's likely what happened.
 
Inverted said:
I did my MEI first, my oral was 6 hours long, I don't consider that easier than a CFI initial...
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Ajax said:
If the FAA wants to play that game then they should also enact a prohibition of the MEI initial for the same reasons as they are citing already.
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You guys understand category and class, right? I think you're getting confused about the made-up term "CFI Initial."

Whether it's in an Airplane Single Engine Land, Multi-Engine Land, or Rotorcraft Helicopter - those are all what you are referring to as "CFI Initials."
 
mojo6911 said:
@MidlifeFlyer
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Definitely interesting. The "policy" seems to be based on the concept that, since a CFII with no aircraft rating can only give ground instruction (accurate) why should the FSDO waste it's time giving those rides as an initial?

Whether a single FSDO or even FAA Flight Standards can create such a policy without a specific regulatory authorization is an interesting question to which I don't have an answer.
 
DBrown said:
Here in east MI it's closer to 85% first time fail rate
I have no idea how I passed mine on the first shot because from what I hear around the water cooler is my examiner rarely passes an initial on the first go.
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We never had ANY issues at our school with CFI initials passing with the EMI FSDO. In the time I taught there, I saw several students bust the initial (one was a 'political BS' bust from the outset), but it was more like a 90% pass rate for us...
 
hcaeborev said:
This probably wouldn't even be a thread nor would people even want the II first if the fail rate on CFI initial wasn't like 70%.

I never understand why that is allowed to happen. There is no way 70% of candidates are not prepared.

I think there is a little bit of a conflict of interest here considering that the examiner also gets paid for the retake.
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I passed my CFI initial the first time. 8 hour oral (9 hours if you include lunch) and we rescheduled the flight. You wouldn't believe it but, a lot of guys DON'T pass the initial because they really aren't prepared. Yes, there is a lot of varied information you have to be an "expert" on. Yes, its hard to remember a bunch of crap that in some cases you are never really going to use again... But you shouldn't be teaching if you aren't prepared. Its a huge responsibility. That said, I do think there is a factor of "likability" that goes into a DPE passing an initial. If they like you and they think you like them, then they are betting that you are going to be sending them check rides.
 
Good deal.

Why are we, as a bunch, always trying to run from difficult tasks?

The easiest route is not always the most rewarding.

Don't run from a challenge, conquer it.

For the record, my initial was MEI, with three FAA inspectors. Two newly minted, and the actual examiner. All three contributed during the oral. Second was CFI, and lastly was CFII.
 
Seems like a simple work around would be to not do it with the EMI fiefdom FSDO. One advantage of fiefdom's FSDOs is their reach is geographically limited.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Definitely interesting. The "policy" seems to be based on the concept that, since a CFII with no aircraft rating can only give ground instruction (accurate) why should the FSDO waste it's time giving those rides as an initial?

Whether a single FSDO or even FAA Flight Standards can create such a policy without a specific regulatory authorization is an interesting question to which I don't have an answer.
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That'd be a great question for chief counsel office.

Does anybody have a link to the two opinions that they cite?

Also, do FSDO's have an FAA attorney working in each office to make sure that this stuff is kosher?
 
Ian J said:
You guys understand category and class, right? I think you're getting confused about the made-up term "CFI Initial."

Whether it's in an Airplane Single Engine Land, Multi-Engine Land, or Rotorcraft Helicopter - those are all what you are referring to as "CFI Initials."
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No confusion what so ever. Nobody in the history of instruction who only has an MEI says "I have a CFI multi-engine land" They say they have an MEI. CFI signifies a single-engine land certified flight instructor certificate. You can call it whatever you want. But I did my multi-engine certified flight instructor checkride first. There are reasons for doing an MEI or CFII first and most, if not all of those reasons make sense.
 
Inverted said:
No confusion what so ever. Nobody in the history of instruction who only has an MEI says "I have a CFI multi-engine land" They say they have an MEI. CFI signifies a single-engine land certified flight instructor certificate. You can call it whatever you want. But I did my multi-engine certified flight instructor checkride first. There are reasons for doing an MEI or CFII first and most, if not all of those reasons make sense.
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Right, but you were equating getting a CFII first (category only) with getting your MEI first (category and class). Getting an MEI first is no different from getting a CFI Airplane SE with regards to cat and class.
 
ryanmickG said:
I really don't see it as easier to get the II first but most schools don't have a complex single and if they do it's not "FSDO" ready. With a CFII you can take a new airplane and won't get the MX inspectors on your ass.
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Been there, done that, and bough the t shirt unfortunately. I've never felt so stuck (with the exception of my unusually long special issuance medical wait, but that's another story) in my life. Several months later and a few hundred $$$ to get proficient again, I passed my initial.
 
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