Thoughts on AF flight engineers

BravoHotel

BravoHotel

Well-Known Member
I am standing on the precipice of going to flight engineer school for C-5s, probably after the new FY. Just waiting for my new unit to induct me and a school date. Militarily I have 7 years in, 4 active in the Marines as a fire fighter and 3 in the Guard as a crew chief on MC-130Ps. Civilian wise, I went to ATP and have a Commercial SEL, MEL, IR, 750tt, 138 ME most of it is from flying skydivers in a Cessna 206. I have my BS from Embry Riddle Worldwide in Professional Aeronautics.

I'm too old to fly for the service. The FE I believe is the best option I have at this moment in time. How can you convert the FE time into usable civilian time? I know military pilots get a commercial ticket from their training, do flight engineers get a civilian flight engineer rating? IIRC you can use 1/3 of your FE time towards your at ATP? Please correct me if I am wrong. Any other thoughts along this would be most appreciated.
 
I'm not versed on the career schema of military aviators, but I think civilian F/Es are a dying breed. Best case scenario, you'd be qualified to take on a job that would very likely go away shortly after you'd landed it. You obviously know more than I do about the long term prospects for military F/Es, but I wouldn't expect much out of the civilian world if you choose this path. All the thoughts I have, sadly.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I'm not versed on the career schema of military aviators, but I think civilian F/Es are a dying breed. Best case scenario, you'd be qualified to take on a job that would very likely go away shortly after you'd landed it. You obviously know more than I do about the long term prospects for military F/Es, but I wouldn't expect much out of the civilian world if you choose this path. All the thoughts I have, sadly.
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The question I have is, how well can I parlay it with my civilian tickets? Another positive factor is the AF gave me a nice signing bonus, plus all the entitlements while I am in flight engineer school. I need to pay down my ATP loan and this is not a bad way to do it.
 
Hawks said:
IIRC you can use 1/3 of your FE time towards your at ATP? Please correct me if I am wrong. Any other thoughts along this would be most appreciated.
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I don't think you can count any FE time towards an ATP. Other than Navy S-3's and Air Force F-4's, I can't think of another military aircraft in which a non-pilot could count SIC time towards civilian tickets. I think the 33% up to 500 towards total time is limited to 121 operations.

Are you an officer?

Edit: I think the 33% up to 500 hours towards total time is limited to 121 operations.
 
"but I think civilian F/Es are a dying breed"

Dead and buried. And I used to be one and have great respect for it. I think your crew experience will look good on a resume. As far as counting military F/E time for anything you can put in your logbook? I kinda doubt it. Pay down the ATP loan and do as much light aircraft flying as you can on the side.
 
DE727UPS said:
"And I used to be one and have great respect for it.
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As do I. When I think of the sprint towards two-person cockpits, I can't help but think of the next sprint to one-person cockpits, and all of the systems knowledge and, for want of a better word, "airmanship" that was and will be lost. But I suppose that's water under the bridge at this point. Sad to say, but the reality is that, best case scenario, economics will demand someone to watch the automation do its stuff. Although I predict a huge job-market for dogs to bite the pilot if he touches anything. There's the silver lining, if you're a canine!
 
If I were in your shoes, I'd look to be a load instead of an eng. The engineers are the first out to the jet, and last to leave, and one always has to be awake around the panel. Loads push pallets for 2 hours, then sleep for 12 and are ready to party when we reach Hawaii, Germany, Guam, etc. If you're a systems type guy and enjoy sitting up front, have fun on the panel!
 
frog_flyer said:
If I were in your shoes, I'd look to be a load instead of an eng. The engineers are the first out to the jet, and last to leave, and one always has to be awake around the panel. Loads push pallets for 2 hours, then sleep for 12 and are ready to party when we reach Hawaii, Germany, Guam, etc. If you're a systems type guy and enjoy sitting up front, have fun on the panel!
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I really considered being a load smasher. After speaking to load monsters at considerable length and weighing options with flight engineers I believe the engineering were more my forte.

To get mission qualified I understand it will take 18 - 20 months, I will be on active duty orders for that duration. After that when I return to being a weekender I will be spun up on all things flying. Hopefully I can utilize my tickets to gain civilian sector employment, maybe as a Regional pilot . Go to work at the Air Force to actually make some money. :D
 
frog_flyer said:
If I were in your shoes, I'd look to be a load instead of an eng. The engineers are the first out to the jet, and last to leave, and one always has to be awake around the panel. Loads push pallets for 2 hours, then sleep for 12 and are ready to party when we reach Hawaii, Germany, Guam, etc. If you're a systems type guy and enjoy sitting up front, have fun on the panel!
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How about a commission? OP has a degree.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
How about a commission? OP has a degree.
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This would depend on how old OP is, and also to be a rated officer be it a pilot or nav, would be a much longer timeline, and it seems he doesn't want to jump through those hoops. That being said I've never met a reserve C-5 pilot that regretted any decisions he made... certainly something to think about.
 
Soku39 said:
This would depend on how old OP is, and also to be a rated officer be it a pilot or nav, would be a much longer timeline, and it seems he doesn't want to jump through those hoops. That being said I've never met a reserve C-5 pilot that regretted any decisions he made... certainly something to think about.
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I didn't get my PPL until I was 34 and didn't get my ATP until age 40. So, I'm not hung up on age. I'm more concerned about the absence of a plan that keeps him flying and working diligently towards a piloting career. He has a fair amount of hours, enough to make some members of this forum jealous.

The OP is 32. He is probably too old for consideration for pilot/nav/rio/ecmo/wso positions in the Navy or Air Force, even through waivers might technically allow it at 32. However, I'm sure there are non-officer programs that he is still eligible for.

The OP needs to make some decisions. He might have already made decisions that preclude a career as a pilot. I think a gig in the reserves further complicates the chances of a piloting career. I return to the question of a commission, because that window (for non-flying officer gigs) will close quickly. At this point, I'm willing to bet that the OP will end up going active again. If he would rather be an enlisted FE than an a non-flying officer, that's his choice.

His is not a unique position. Many must make career choices based on debt, relationships, and other factors.

Edit: At 34, I had 1100 hours SIC (military), 0 PIC.
 
Adler said:
I left the regionals to be a flight engineer; we just hired three more. I argue F/E's are alive and strong.
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I am aware that there are a fair number of airworthy aircraft that need FE's, but "alive and strong"? More like barely alive and kicking.
 
Might be a day late and a dollar short, but you can count FE time towards your ATP. There are some conditions though. 1 for 3 (3 hours FE will count for 1 hour towards ATP) hours up to a maximum of 500 hours for the ATP. Also, you will have the ICAO restriction since you have to have 1500 PIC hours for the non-restricted ATP. Lastly, you have to have a FAA DPE give you a check ride in the plane and getting that done in the C-5 is pretty tough. There used to be a guy up a Dover a few years ago, but I don't think he's flying anymore and I am not aware of any other guys out there that are doing them. But...I haven't looked either, so no telling. The job is fun and no, I wouldn't want to be a load-smasher...the A/C in the cargo box SUCKS. :)

A dying breed? Oye. That's OK...I am glad to have been one and would do it again in a heartbeat.
 
HeyEng said:
Might be a day late and a dollar short, but you can count FE time towards your ATP. There are some conditions though. 1 for 3 (3 hours FE will count for 1 hour towards ATP) hours up to a maximum of 500 hours for the ATP. Also, you will have the ICAO restriction since you have to have 1500 PIC hours for the non-restricted ATP. Lastly, you have to have a FAA DPE give you a check ride in the plane and getting that done in the C-5 is pretty tough. There used to be a guy up a Dover a few years ago, but I don't think he's flying anymore and I am not aware of any other guys out there that are doing them. But...I haven't looked either, so no telling. The job is fun and no, I wouldn't want to be a load-smasher...the A/C in the cargo box SUCKS. :)

A dying breed? Oye. That's OK...I am glad to have been one and would do it again in a heartbeat.
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Alright, I'm gonna call BS unless you can quote a reg. Military flight engineer != Civilian flight engineer. Engineers do not fly airplanes, period dot.
 
Since y'all are going back and forth on this subject... I'll provide the reference to discuss because I keep getting different answers on the subject.

61.159 (c) (3)

And nothing in ANY of the FE experience allowances say ANYTHING about requirements to fly the aircraft. All is stated is that the FE is a required crewmember.

Needless to say... When I have the time, I'll give it shot with an inspector or two. Worst they can say is no. But, as long as it's in the regs, I don't see why though should.
 
MercFE said:
Since y'all are going back and forth on this subject... I'll provide the reference to discuss because I keep getting different answers on the subject.

61.159 (c) (3)

And nothing in ANY of the FE experience allowances say ANYTHING about requirements to fly the aircraft. All is stated is that the FE is a required crewmember.

Needless to say... When I have the time, I'll give it shot with an inspector or two. Worst they can say is no. But, as long as it's in the regs, I don't see why though should.
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There's your problem- the military does NOT operate under the FAR's. The Air Force merely agrees to abide by them in their operations, and the FARs are folded directly into our regulations.

Military flight crews do not fall under ANY part of Part 61.

Sorry, but it ain't happenin.
 
NewYorkophile said:
There's your problem- the military does NOT operate under the FAR's. The Air Force merely agrees to abide by them in their operations, and the FARs are folded directly into our regulations.

Military flight crews do not fall under ANY part of Part 61.

Sorry, but it ain't happenin.
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Agreed, we don't follow FARs for flying... However, the FAR does state Military Flight Engineer experience. And 61 has nothing to do with operation, and everything to do with certification of airmen.

Makes me wonder if you actually read the reference.
 
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