Thoughts on AF flight engineers

[NewYorkophile]

Well, the worst they can say is no.

I've just never heard of any non-pilot getting experience counted towards ratings/flight time. I'd sure as hell put it on a resume, but whether or not the FAA will let it go towards total time is something else.

 

[MercFE]

Well, the worst they can say is no.

I've just never heard of any non-pilot getting experience counted towards ratings/flight time. I'd sure as hell put it on a resume, but whether or not the FAA will let it go towards total time is something else.

And believe me, I see both sides of the argument, to an extent.

I would argue that quite a few of the 1,500 hours a typical applicant utilizes toward their ATP are of one of two varieties, monitoring a student while acting as a CFI or monitoring an autopilot in some sort of cargo hauling op. Functions that, if loosely defined, I could argue that I perform as well in my military flight engineer duties.

From the CFI standpoint... I, as a qualified FE, routinely mentor and train junior pilots on the aircraft systems and performance. I also back them up during their pilot training, giving insights to how the aircraft handles in different situations and giving input in how they might be able to over come some of their problems with the jet. You would be AMAZED at how much input I can give from a bird's eye view of the situation that the instructor pilot may not be able to see to correct.

From the autopilot monitor... I would love to be able to tell you how many times I have had to give a direction to a pilot to correct a situation that could have led directly to my death, just a millisecond or two after theirs. Nothing better than joining a 10 mile DME arc on a TACAN approach, descending through 8,000 for 3,000 at about 7-8,000 feet per minute and 50 degrees angle of bank because both pilots decide they want to be heads down in the FMS while we're in IMC conditions. And to add to the scenario, the pilot flying was one of our senior instructor pilots in the squadron.

From the system and performance knowledge standpoint. I pride myself in going toe-to-toe with any one of our aircraft commanders in the squadron. If they beat me in the knowledge, it's an opportunity for me to learn something.

I've had a similar conversation in the past with another member of the board... And while I understand the other side of the argument, I would say that there is a complete misunderstanding from that other side of what a flight engineer really does.

/rant

So... What would be the harm in allowing a FE that meets the requirements of 61.159, with the inclusion of his 500 FE hours, give a shot at an ATP check ride? I would say it would be his pink slip to accept if he truly can't perform to the ATP standards. But, why deny him a chance to prove PTS standards just because you don't think FE's can cut it?

 

[NewYorkophile]

I would love to be able to tell you how many times I have had to give a direction to a pilot to correct a situation that could have led directly to my deat...h

Oh trust me, I'm right there with ya- I'm a nav. My 1400hrs of "watching people fly planes" comes in handy.

 

[Adler]

I was just talking to the a crew on a civilian C-130, the FE was a coast guard FE back in the day. Maybe?

 

[MercFE]

I was just talking to the a crew on a civilian C-130, the FE was a coast guard FE back in the day. Maybe?

There are most certainly some FE jobs out in the civilian side, just not many of them. I made it a point to pick up my FAA FE certificate while the military would pay for it. I know that the chances of me directly using it are slim, but a free license that shows that I have the knowledge recognized by the FAA seems like a smart decision.

 

[MatD13]

I made it a point to pick up my FAA FE certificate while the military would pay for it. I know that the chances of me directly using it are slim, but a free license that shows that I have the knowledge recognized by the FAA seems like a smart decision.

Sorry to bring up an old post but how did you go about getting your FE certificate? Been a FE for 5 years now and want to get this.

Thanks

 

[MercFE]

Sorry to bring up an old post but how did you go about getting your FE certificate? Been a FE for 5 years now and want to get this.

Thanks

Good networking, to be honest.

The Navy has NavyCool, which will pay for licensing fees associated with transferring you military skills to the civilian side. They paid the fee for the written test.

The flight test is where the networking came in. I had a good connection to a retired gentleman that used to fly within my community. I was able to get permission for him to tag along during one of our normally scheduled training flights, where he was able to conduct the check ride.

Speaking to him at the time, DFEs are few and far between now a days. He said he was one of two that were able to do 707 checks, and as far as I know his qual has lapsed since my ride.

Really, I'm not sure how I would go about doing the same thing today. Glad I did it while it was viable.

 

[MatD13]

Thanks for the info, I heard a while back when I first got to Tinker there was one "guy" that did that too but is long gone. Just too bad there isn't an easy way to do it these days. Knowingly I would never use it when I get out, I thought it would be nice to have since I don't hit my 20 year mark for another 8 years just because...

 

[HeyEng]

Since this has been "necroposted" already, I wanted to clarify something. The FAA DOES accept military time towards the ATP requirement...up to 500 hours (there is a 1:3 ratio so you would need 1,500 hours to count the full 500). I am not sure if Part 61 was updated, but here is what it says:

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;

(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

 

[NewYorkophile]

(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

Any thoughts on whether this includes aircraft that require a navigator? I haven't found a reg regarding Navs at all, thinking it might be a call to the FSDO to ask.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Well, the worst they can say is no.

I've just never heard of any non-pilot getting experience counted towards ratings/flight time. I'd sure as hell put it on a resume, but whether or not the FAA will let it go towards total time is something else.

As far as the Navy goes, S-3 NFO's were the last guys that had any luck in this regard. They let me count all my COTAC time as SIC time towards my ATP.

 

[NewYorkophile]

As far as the Navy goes, S-3 NFO's were the last guys that had any luck in this regard. They let me count all my COTAC time as SIC time towards my ATP.

Did you get a FSDO interpretation for that, or find some precedence anywhere to make a case? I'm in touch with the FSDO now.

 

[e6bflyer]

I think that's a pretty common one. The S-3 had a set of controls on the right side. I have heard of multiple NFOs counting it as SIC time for certificate purposes. The challenge now may be finding a FSDO or examiner who remembers that practice being accepted. Maybe in Jax or San Diego.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Did you get a FSDO interpretation for that, or find some precedence anywhere to make a case? I'm in touch with the FSDO now.

I don't know of an S-3 COTAC that was unsuccessful, but it's been almost twenty years. The only guys that had trouble were the greedy guys that tried to count time "logged" as PIC. They scrutinized the hell out of my PIC time but just glanced at the SIC. I wonder if the COTAC (copilot/tactical coordinator) didn't help. @MikeD or @bunk22 might know some recent examples. However, would anybody invite the scrutiny?

This was also commonplace for AF F-4 RIO's. Have any F-15 backseat guys had any luck? I haven't heard of any. I think the sticking point might be that two-hole F-15 can be operated solo (I could be wrong).

I've always heard dual controls, training, and required crew was the standard but I've never seen it in writing.

As far as precedence, the FAA probably has thousands of 8710's in which NFO's and AF WSO's have applied time.

 

[MikeD]

@MikeD or @bunk22 might know some recent examples. However, would anybody invite the scrutiny?

Just the S-3 NFO/COTAC that I work with at my agency who did the same thing you did. That's the only reason I knew exactly what you were talking about and how it worked when you first joined this forum a while back and were trying to explain this very thing to a bunch in a thread where they didn't believe you or believe it possible. The guy I work with, would've been about early 2000s for him.

 

[ryan1234]

This was also commonplace for AF F-4 RIO's. Have any F-15 backseat guys had any luck? I haven't heard of any. I think the sticking point might be that two-hole F-15 can be operated solo (I could be wrong).

I've always heard dual controls, training, and required crew was the standard but I've never seen it in writing.

As far as I know, a WSO is not required crew on the F-15E. Supposedly, it's kosher with the FAA to log the time when actually flying... but airlines frown upon such time. It is what it is.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Just the S-3 NFO/COTAC that I work with at my agency who did the same thing you did. That's the only reason I knew exactly what you were talking about and how it worked when you first joined this forum a while back and were trying to explain this very thing to a bunch in a thread where they didn't believe you or believe it possible. The guy I work with, would've been about early 2000s for him.

Do you know if any F-15 GIB's have been succesful in getting FAA to recognize time?

It would certainly be more valuable now than in years past.

 

[MikeD]

Do you know if any F-15 GIB's have been succesful in getting FAA to recognize time?

It would certainly be more valuable now than in years past.

Not that I know of personally or have heard. Same with -111 WSO/EWOs. Haven't heard of this happening on this side of the fence.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Not that I know of personally or have heard. Same with -111 WSO/EWOs. Haven't heard of this happening on this side of the fence.

Without dual controls, the EWO's would have a tough time making a case.

 

[MikeD]

Without dual controls, the EWO's would have a tough time making a case.

That's a very good point, for the EF-111 guys. I guess the G model F-4 guys may be able to make the argument (they're EWOs as opposed to WSOs), as well as the AF F-4 guys in general who were WSOs.

Weird thing is, and I guess different from NFOs, but I'm not certain since there's been a lot of changes over time with Nav training in the USAF; is that when AF Navs track in training, the guys who go EWO seem to stop focusing on aviation related stuff, and moreso focus on the technical stuff related to their job of countering threat systems, threats themselves, etc. As an example, I used to fly with a fellow A-10 guy who had become a pilot late, as he had spent 3 years as a B-52H EWO. In his own words, he "merely wore" the Navigator wings, as his knowledge of anything actually navigation related was fairly non-existant or only very basic, since when he tracked EWO track, their focus in training completely changed. He basically said that besides wearing the same wings, he as an EWO had next to nothing in common with, say, a "table Nav".....the classic Navigator you'd find on a C-130 or formerly on a KC-135 for instance (and vice versa). Or anything in common with an F-4/F-15E WSO, for that matter.

I'm not sure if this philosophy is the same with NFOs when they track to ECMO.